Shin guard - pro and contra

[Sieh Tanonchai]

Thanks anyway for the hint to the 'German Pahuyuths" and their advanced techniques. Back to the topic:

Whats the point of using shin guards?
The way of learning MT without them, is this reasonable?

[george stando]

The german pahuyuth stuff is made up by the teacher. It has no corrolation or validity to anything taught in thailand. He translated many books without crediting the source so it seems he is very knowledgeable.

[george stando]

In our kai muay, we use shin guards when training at certain times, so they use them in thailand. I mean you make it out to seem that nobody here in thailand uses them. The trainers wear them. The fighters wear them when doing drills to correct problems or to strengthen technique. The fighters need to keep their bodies free from injury so they do everything can do to maintain that and if they have to wear shinguards they do.

If someone is not a pro fighter and doesnt have the shin conditioning, he will most definitely have to use them so he can do the techniques.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

In our kai muay, we use shin guards when training at certain times, so they use them in thailand. I mean you make it out to seem that nobody here in thailand uses them. The trainers wear them. The fighters wear them when doing drills to correct problems or to strengthen technique. The fighters need to keep their bodies free from injury so they do everything can do to maintain that and if they have to wear shinguards they do.

If someone is not a pro fighter and doesnt have the shin conditioning, he will most definitely have to use them so he can do the techniques.

Intersting, I heard before also MT fighters use shin g. in Thailand. I guess the use of this shin g. is limited to pro fights, isnt it?
As far as I know you won't find many other fighters using them. And I guess if you meet traditionell fighters they won't accept shin guards.

So you heard of Sunthus S. ? What books and what else did you hear? Where is he living?

[the tick]

Thanks anyway for the hint to the 'German Pahuyuths" and their advanced techniques. Back to the topic:

Whats the point of using shin guards?
The way of learning MT without them, is this reasonable?

Right. The point of using shinguards is to avoid unecessary injuries. Not using them is inviting injuries which may become chronic over time. Which would be pretty moronic. Like the kind of people I have mentioned earlier on.

[george stando]

Sunthus lives and teaches in germany. he has been there for a long time.

I dont really understand your point about shin guards. are you asking about training or fighting. In amateur fighting, there is headguards, shinguards, etc for maximum safety. In training, in thailand in a kai muay, shin guards are used generally by the trainer and by fighters when doing specific drills. In pro fights in thailand there no shin guards or headguards. In amateur muay thai events in thailand, there is headgear, knee/elbow pads, shinguards, gloves. In europe and the us, in commercial classes, people are not generally pro fighters and use a variety of safety equipment to train. Usually the fighters in those classes will do pad work and bag work to condition the shins and work more to prepare to be fighters.

Even in old bare knuckle, they conditioned their shins, fists, etc slowly and safely so even in the old days things were done in a safe developing manner. If they bashed themselves to death, how the hell are they going to fight effectively?

[fire cobra]

When I first started Muay Thai almost 30 years ago I never used shin pads whilst learning(no one in the gym did),when I boxed I never used shin pads and when I started teaching I never allowed shin pads in the gym,this went on for a lot of years,my shins have not suffered any ill effects(so far!) all these years later.

As the years rolled by shin pads became more popular in martial arts in general(Im speaking of in the UK) and my members started wearing them,the benifits I have found is the pads allow us to make more contact without the fear of rib damage to your partner(which is the main injury from the knee I find),
making harder contact is important because in the west we dont usually box as much as the boxers in Thailand so need more live hands on training for ring preperation.

The negatives of to much use of the pads are a false sense of security when kicking and blocking,training without pads helps the placement of kicks and helps blocking correctly,so I like to use both methods of training,the pads for safety and harder sparring,no pads for respect of the shin and correct placement in defense and attack.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

Right. The point of using shinguards is to avoid unecessary injuries. Not using them is inviting injuries which may become chronic over time.

Now I got it, your point is to avoid unnecessary injuries?
On the first look it could seem to be logical, but my guess is different. The more people are protected the harder they go! You can see it all over, car racing, diving, climbing, fighting, sports, all over. So what happens is fighters using shin guards will kick harder since they are 'protected'. If a technique is correct or not, it does not matter if both parties kick hard enough, shin guards cover it even more.
So I do not think shin guard avoid injuries, it enhances injuries. Fighters do not learn how to avoid injuries using guards, but they could by applying technique and by controlling their forces. If they do not know these basics how can they protect themselves and the partner efficient?
And once you started using shin guards it is very hard to change back. You are used to and you think you have to keep the same force/speed etc as you did with guards, that won't work. So people don't take this step back, usually. But the benefits are promising, if a fighter want to learn why MT became successful and why it works.
I am sure about above. I had/have many opportunities to verify my thoughts about shin guards since I box once in a while in gyms with all kind of fighters. And I even have seen something 'funny'. Sometimes a shin guard fighter kicks quite hard and I had the impression of a similar pain as I know it from kicking without shin guard. The only difference I could see where in the applied force, with shin guard you simply kick (very) harder as without guards to get finally the same kind of pain. But I think it is this 'kick of pain' you need to get in order to improve your 'approach'.

george stando,
it is probably all true, what you said, for pro's. But I do not consider MT-pro's to be the elite of fighting since these pro's make their living out of it and bedding is involved etc.
MT is just a small part out of the total package and its efficiency is proven to mostly everybody, but there is more where this came from ...

fire cobra,
I like your approach. I am just not sure if a mix of both would make it hard for a fighter to actually learn the difference. By using guards sometimes I could imagine it is difficult for a fighter to distinguish e.g. the forces he better applies, specially for beginners. Is it?

Sieh

[george stando]

Muay thai is muay thai. It is right now a professional ring sport, you have old styles which had no gloves and are more like regular training systems, you have weapons systems, you can do the different formats. They have amateur muay thai now for those who dont want to compete on the pro level. You have military muay thai for self defense and hardcore application outside of the sports stuff, so you have what you need if you understand each and how to use it. Safety is of primary importance and the use of safety gear to protect the practitioners is put into practice. In non pro situations, you will see it used alot more and that makes sense as well in amateur fights. I dont think its too hard to understand. You avoid injuries when in practice which for a fighter means he will be injury free in the ring. For the regular person or amateur it means he will be free to go to work the next day without bruises, contusions and limping in like he came from fight club. Work and making a living outside of participating in the sport is their primary function.

This is more than to the thai martial arts but muay thai is how it evolved in the ring. Fighting was always what they built their martial arts on.

As far a true force, my trainer hits guys in the leg with a shin pad on and he moves them and they are trained and hardcore, if he hit a regular person that hard he would be very respectful and very weary to want to receive that kick again. Practice with guys with hard kicks and you'll see after repetitive kicks over and over, you will be feeling alot more than you think.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

Muay thai is muay thai. It is right now a professional ring sport, you have old styles which had no gloves and are more like regular training systems, you have weapons systems, you can do the different formats. They have amateur muay thai now for those who dont want to compete on the pro level. You have military muay thai for self defense and hardcore application outside of the sports stuff, so you have what you need if you understand each and how to use it. Safety is of primary importance and the use of safety gear to protect the practitioners is put into practice. In non pro situations, you will see it used alot more and that makes sense as well in amateur fights. I dont think its too hard to understand. You avoid injuries when in practice which for a fighter means he will be injury free in the ring. For the regular person or amateur it means he will be free to go to work the next day without bruises, contusions and limping in like he came from fight club. Work and making a living outside of participating in the sport is their primary function.

This is more than to the thai martial arts but muay thai is how it evolved in the ring. Fighting was always what they built their martial arts on.

As far a true force, my trainer hits guys in the leg with a shin pad on and he moves them and they are trained and hardcore, if he hit a regular person that hard he would be very respectful and very weary to want to receive that kick again. Practice with guys with hard kicks and you'll see after repetitive kicks over and over, you will be feeling alot more than you think.

Thank you for describing how it is. This is important to have a common base to start from.
Now why do you think you NEED shin guards? injuries are usually a consequence of missing knowledge and technique, at least during training/sparring. Once the fighters know about their weapons the number of injuries is negligible.
I have seen it!

BTW
At earlier times the WaiKru was shown also to show the opponent how good you are. This was the last chance for a weaker fighter to go out of this confrontation without fight. At this time usually just fighters with equal knowledge would fight. If this would be still a rule of today many injuries would been avoided!

[george stando]

Come to thailand and train and prove your theories and knowledge. Love to see it. Talk less. Train more.

As far as the old wai krus genius, let me just help clarify something you dont understand, there were specific wai krus for muays like chaiya, korat, pranakorn, lanna,etc. Specific styles not made up styles like you are learning. When someone did one of those specific wai krus people knew immediately they were with that style. So it was not so much from the wai kru but the symbol of what that style and what fighters they represented meant that would produce fear or trepidation, come to thailand and research that so you can adjust your thinking. So you dont understand really anything other than superficial value and your pahuyuth remains just that. How do you even know the junk you are selling and bought for money from a commercial teacher is even the truth? How many YEARS have you been training and how much research did you put into seeing if this indeed the real unvarnished truth and not some new take on it??

You seem stuck on injuries and such, probably because either you cant fight nor were ever taught to fight safely, so you probably get injuried alot or never fight at all in real time with intent. Train and learn. if you dont want to use shinguards then dont use them, simple as that. as far as when the fighters knows your weapons, so what? its in the set up, skill, precision and delivery that make it live and breath. My trainer can land a leg kick with every combination and entry and fake you could imagine. You dont fight obviously or deal with real intent so you will never understand.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

Come to thailand and train and prove your theories and knowledge. Love to see it. Talk less. Train more.

I would love to, really.

As far as the old wai krus genius, let me just help clarify something you dont understand, there were specific wai krus for muays like chaiya, korat, pranakorn, lanna,etc. Specific styles not made up styles like you are learning.

Thank you so much for meeting you, now i know somebody who knows the truth, great. Can I call you oracle from now on? Just kidding, ok?
So there was one wai kru for each style? Everybody training this style had the honor to learn a specific wai kru?
interesting.

When someone did one of those specific wai krus people knew immediately they were with that style. So it was not so much from the wai kru but the symbol of what that style and what fighters they represented meant that would produce fear or trepidation,

So if a fighter would recognize a deadly wai kru from a famous place he would know about the danger. Wai Krus were meant to fear fighters and since all of one style showed the same wai kru it was easy to identify, I think I got it.

come to thailand and research that so you can adjust your thinking.

As I said, I would love to. but I am lucky in Thailand are people like you and I met you here, so I do not really need to go there anymore, do I. If you don't mind I just ask you.

So you dont understand really anything other than superficial value and your pahuyuth remains just that. How do you even know the junk you are selling and bought for money from a commercial teacher is even the truth?

It's possible, who knows .

How many YEARS have you been training and how much research did you put into seeing if this indeed the real unvarnished truth and not some new take on it??

Oh my god, I don't even want to think about it, so many years. But i learned and finally this brought me here, so it was not that bad, was it?

You seem stuck on injuries and such, probably because either you cant fight nor were ever taught to fight safely, so you probably get injuried alot or never fight at all in real time with intent.

Well, i don't know about that.

Train and learn. if you dont want to use shinguards then dont use them, simple as that.

fair enough, but I will reconsider my thinking.

as far as when the fighters knows your weapons, so what? its in the set up, skill, precision and delivery that make it live and breath.

And using shin guards helps to improve this? Well, I did not know that, I will give it a try.

My trainer can land a leg kick with every combination and entry and fake you could imagine. You dont fight obviously or deal with real intent so you will never understand.

Impressing, i guess you have a great trainer, if he is able to do this kind of combinations, he must be really good. Is he a ex-champ or a well-known?

George, thank you, your information reallyu made me thinking.

Sieh

[george stando]

Good then go and train and then let us know.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

Good then go and train and then let us know.

In order to start over again, could you tell me what techniques are specially wrong and how to correct it?

thanks
Sieh

[george stando]

No, I am not your teacher. You must go and learn directly from a teacher, so you can see, feel and know. Train more, talk less. The maxim of the day.

It is the best advice for someone in your situation. This is my last and most important post on this thread. Good luck.