dangers of wester/thai boxing

[StickyHands]

Hi guys, it's been a while since I've posted anything on here and this is something I've been thinking about for quite a while now and wanted to hear others' opinions on it. I guess my question would be, which do you think is more dangerous, western boxing or thai boxing and why? I understand that your answers may be largely based on opinions; however, I'm wondering anyway, and I'm wondering if anyone knows of any medical studies that might compare the two great sports..?

My take: Thai Boxing is more dangerous on the surface for many obvious reasons. The use of nearly the entire body as a weapon being the most obvious. However, I feel many of the dangers of Thai Boxing might tend to be shorter term injuries, relatively speaking. For example, there's definitely a higher chance for cuts, broken noses, ribs, and various other body parts. However, these injuries may not be as permanent, or life threatening.

While Thai Boxing has the higher possibility for more surface injuries such as broken bones and cosmetic injuries such as scars etc., the damage to the brain caused from Western Boxing is undeniable. There is also the possibility for these other smaller injuries similarly to Thai Boxing but not quite on the same level. However, there have been many studies that prove brain damage caused from continual blows to the head. Furthermore, much of a fighter's attack is focused at his/her opponent's head in Western Boxing whereas it may be more varied in Thai Boxing due to the ability to use legs/knees. That being said, punching is still a large part of Thai Boxing..so I'm a little torn over this, but I think overall Wester Boxing may be more harmful to one's brain while Thai Boxing may ware the entire body down more as a whole.

I'm very interested to hear what you all have to say about this because I know a lot of you have serious experience fighting in one or both of these arts. Also, this is a question I've been considering because I'm planning on doing some amateur fights in one of these arts. As of right now I'm leaning more toward Western Boxing, but I'm not entirely sure. Thanks and sorry for the length but I'm slightly inebriated and I tend to ramble in my current state of mind..

[Tee Sok]

That's an interesting subject you bring up, and I agree with your reasoning,
I think that in the long run a professional boxer is more prone to serious permanent
brain damage.
The head after all is the primary target and gets hit so many times.
I talked to a doctor once because I had health issue and I was told that blows cause
micro haemmorhage around the neck everytime it snaps back and around. These are
harmless but too many of them (as in years and years of fighting) can damage the brain.

Many times I have heard of former boxers who cannot think and talk straight because of
all the blows they received, but there are others who are fine.

I am curious about others' replies, that's a good topic.

[StickyHands]

Thanks Tee Sok, I think you nailed it; the head just seems to be hit more in western boxing because it's the primary target. I've also heard of former boxers who can't think or talk but I don't know much about retired thai boxers having these issues. From what I've seen, former thai boxers tend to be less able to get around physically due to the vicious attacks they've withstood from continual blows to the body.

[george stando]

Sorry but in thailand I havent seen very many crippled old fighters. If you go into the camps some of the top trainers and ajarns are old and still teaching some are still pad holding and extremely active after having more than 150 fights. The thing that really makes a difference is extreme conditioning and being in top shape and taking care of yourself. If you live in a camp, if the fighter is hurt, he heals up fully then gets back to training and when he is ready he fights again. The key to muay thai is being 100% ready for the ring-- so the sparring isnt extreme etc, the body needs to come ready totally for the fight.

[Prince Vegita]

Drawing conclusions from Thailand probably isn't the best idea-- don't the Thai people tend to be smaller than westerners, on average? I do know that my 170lb self has to buy XXL or XXXL trunks when I order them from Thailand. Bigger build probably equals more brain damage, so that may be a potential confound. Comparing weight classes between countries would be instructive, see if the levels of brain damage are similar. Of course then you have to consider differences in health care availability and quality as a means of diagnosing/treating internal injuries.... etc etc.

[Tee Sok]

That's a good point from George, the tough conditioning and the health care are crucial. I am sure the majotiry of old fighters-both in muay thai and in boxing-are well, or the arts wouldn't be as practiced and popular.
If I think about my old coach, he does well and his father who was in his 70's and a former boxer was doing well too.
I posted an article about the difference between boxing and MMA and thai boxing injuries a while back, I will try to find it.

Here is Mir's opinion in that, it really seems to be the vast amount of blows to the pro boxers head that makes the diffeence:

Frank Mir on MMA vs Boxing and which is more dangerous | Caged Insider

[fire cobra]

Profesional boxing at a high level definately carries more risk of head injury(brain trauma ) than Muay Thai at the same level imho,12x3min rnds getting hit to head (and body) by a opponent who knows how to hit and hurt is far more likely to cause long and short term head damage than 5x3min Muay Thai whereby you can hit 3 target areas and clinch,I did a short test a while ago where I watched lots of fights from Thailand and counted how many times the boxers got punched in the head it averaged at 3 times per round(ish).

Of course it depends on what type of Thai boing style you have,classic style boxers dont take all that much damage, there are punch drunk boxers in Thailand but they are few and far between and often they have done Western Boxing as well as Thai Boxing.

Sparring in Boxing daily also would take its toll wheras in Muay Thai(in Thailand) there is more emphasis on light sparring,pad work and clinching.

I personally think pro boxing at a high level is the hardest of all ring sports(including MMA)

[Tee Sok]

I was going to propose that, comparing an average muay thai bout and a boxing one.

You said it, more targets in muay thai and also less rounds. There usually isn't all the jabbing that is
typical of boxing. Jabs may be lighter punches but they take their toll.

[WildWest.]

The answer is not black and white.

But generally speaking Boxing is more dangerous than MT. The reasons have already been mentioned by others in that the head is the main target in boxing and takes a decent amount of punishment during a bout and in sparring.

This problem is compounded when you get boxers who fight professionally until they are in their 50's.....that's a lot of years of punishment.

[StickyHands]

Fire Cobra, I think your point about the difference in the length of fights is a great one. Western Boxing fights are longer and therefore there are more opportunities to hit/get hit in the head. Your point about different styles of fighting is also important to note. In either art, Thai or Western Boxing, different fighters will have different styles which will greatly affect the amount of times they get hit and where they get hit.

WildWest, you're definitely right, that there is no black and white answer. As I mentioned earlier in regards to different styles dictating the number and location of blows, there are countless variables that play a factor in any fight. Therefore, it is probably impossible to say which style is more dangerous with any real concrete certainty.

It seems like the general consensus here is that Western Boxing is more dangerous to a fighter's brain and thus tends to be more dangerous in the long term. I tend to agree with this line of thought but I find it really interesting because Thai Boxing is considered such a brutal sport and still has the punching aspect of Western Boxing. I think the idea of counting blows to the head throughout a fight is a great idea and I think if I were to attempt this I wouldn't be able to keep up with the amount in a Western Boxing fight but would probably easily be able to count those in a Thai Boxing fight.

Tee Sok, I'd be really interested to see the article about the difference between injuries in Boxing, MMA, and Thai Boxing, please post it if you find it!

[fire cobra]

Bruce Lee said about western boxing "it is over daring" because of the glove.

Muay thai you have to be more cautious with your defence and planning your attacks because of the danger of the opponents knee/elbow/shin bone landing on you,another reason why the head blows are less imho guys.

[Tee Sok]

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/boxing-discussion-forum/35759-taking-punch-article.html#post336410

This isn't the post I was talking about but it's still interesting. the other one is difficult to find since I posted it around five years ago and I don't remember in which forum!

[Scott Bolinger]

yep, ended up being a very interesting topic. But whats the better fighter, all depends on the student. I teach both and when one of my kickboxer sparrs one of my boxers, they get a rough stratigy of what each would do and how to fustrate each others stratigies. I kickboxier can use there legs to kick the boxers leggs and ware them down, and then use the length of the leg to kep the boxier away and at leg lenght, but the boxer can learn to block a kick, or eat a kick, come over top with a rever puch, and be close in, at his convert zone and work the hands. It just depends on the fighter and what he or she knows.

[Tee Sok]

I found it, sorry I remembered wrongly I copied just an answer not the whole interview, and thai boxing isn't mentioned. But it's still interesting as it is coming from a top ringside doctor:

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE RISING POPULARITY OF MIXED MARTIAL ARTS
CONTESTS, SUCH AS THE UFC?

MMA IS MORE VIOLENT BUT LESS DANGEROUS THAN BOXING. PEOPLE
SEE MMA FIGHTERS PUNCH EACH OTHER ON THE GROUND BUT THOSE
PUNCHES DON'T HAVE ANY WEIGHT BEHIND THEM SO DON'T DO MUCH
DAMAGE. REAL DAMAGE IS DONE WHEN A SKILLED BOXER PUTS HIS
ENTIRE BODY WEIGHT INTO AN UPPERCUT. THE POWER THAT GENERATES
IS PHENOMENAL. MMA REFEREES ALSO STOP CONTESTS A LOT QUICKER
THAN IN BOXING, PLUS MMA FIGHTERS ARE ALLOWED TO TAP-OUT, TO
QUIT, WITHOUT STIGMA.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/boxing-discussion-forum/25301-dr-paul-wallace-mma.html

[StickyHands]

Thanks for finding and posting it Tee Sok. It seems to be pretty much opinion based although I think it's a valuable one considering it's coming from a ringside doctor. It's also an opinion I, and most of the people I know who have an opinion on the topic, agree with. Makes me think twice about amateur boxing..