As a Thai Boxer, say yes or no to weights ?

[fightstuff]

I think getting the right balance and routine of weight lifting into your Thai Boxing training is very beneficial. However you should not neglect the cardio as well. I don't want to be repeating things that people have already said in this thread. However I just want to talk about muscle memory.

Every muscle in your body has a memory. This basically means that if you train slow, fast, incurately, accurately, etc and keep repeating that routine your muscles will remember. For Example, if you always jab to your opponents chin or to the center spot on a focus mitt then you will be able to hit that target without thinking because your muscles will remember. This leads me on to weight lifting. I read a previous thread stating that bulky muscles makes you slow. This is not true. If the individual have built their muscle mass using fast routines and light weights his muscle memory will be quite quick. However if a person does slow heavy routines this is where it will impact on your speed.

[Ghost]

A big fat yes. ive now lived in thailand for the best part of 2 years training muay thai. have approx 9 years experience now in MT.

One thing ive become certain of is that if the thais paid more attention to their diets(which are appalling) and weight training they would be a damned site more effective.

Obviously not saying they arent, cos they do very well. But they could be just that much better.

Ive sparred with thais my height but due to my strength benefits from weights i can now throw them all over the place as i also now have the technique. Initially i would lose purely due to technique.

This is where MT NEEDS to evolve.

all in my opinion you understand. nothing wrong with training without weights. just i personally feel you wont be as good as you could be without.

[fightstuff]

ok guys ive just had a thought about this. i am all for weight training incorporated into Thai Boxing. However I am just thinking back to when I teach. I never have any weights equipment around, so I use isokentic and resistance training to substitute for the weights. I know this type of training is and can be used to substitute for traditional weights, so the question should really not be should we use weights, because this is a resounding yes. The question should be what routines can we use when weights are not available?

[Ghost]

ok guys ive just had a thought about this. i am all for weight training incorporated into Thai Boxing. However I am just thinking back to when I teach. I never have any weights equipment around, so I use isokentic and resistance training to substitute for the weights. I know this type of training is and can be used to substitute for traditional weights, so the question should really not be should we use weights, because this is a resounding yes. The question should be what routines can we use when weights are not available?

when you say you use resistance training to substitute for weights what do you mean? not having a dig, just not sure what you mean because weights are usually thought of as resistance training.

Im certain of one thing, no Fuking kettlebells. total rubbish fad weight training kit.

Personally, i dont think you will get the same benefits from say, bodyweight training that you would from using iron. I say this based on experience. soon as i made the switch to iron my power gains went mental. obviously combined with good technique.
As for routines i think we would need a new thread, would be a good one, care to start one?

[fightstuff]

well with isokentic training you are never going to see the power gains of using iron. However isokentic will help with muscle tone and it also focuses on technique. I used to use this training method when a student's technique was all over the place. It slows everything down and makes you concentrate on the technique and muscle groups.

Also regarding weight resistance training you are right regarding weight training is a resistance training. However I didn't know how to describe this training technique and I thought resistance training best fitted it. I dont think you will get the same benefit as iron weight training if you are just doing push ups, sit ups and squats. However if you use your partner's weight then I think the benefit can be almost the same or just below the benefits you get from weight training. For Example, if you did leg presses with your partners chest on your feet then you are effectively pressing your partners body weight.

[Ghost]

well with isokentic training you are never going to see the power gains of using iron. However isokentic will help with muscle tone and it also focuses on technique. I used to use this training method when a student's technique was all over the place. It slows everything down and makes you concentrate on the technique and muscle groups.

Also regarding weight resistance training you are right regarding weight training is a resistance training. However I didn't know how to describe this training technique and I thought resistance training best fitted it. I dont think you will get the same benefit as iron weight training if you are just doing push ups, sit ups and squats. However if you use your partner's weight then I think the benefit can be almost the same or just below the benefits you get from weight training. For Example, if you did leg presses with your partners chest on your feet then you are effectively pressing your partners body weight.

yeah i see what you mean, that would basically constitute weight training. i agree with you. would work.

[sportmuaythai]

A big fat yes. Ive sparred with thais my height but due to my strength benefits from weights i can now throw them all over the place as i also now have the technique. Initially i would lose purely due to technique.
All in my opinion you understand. Nothing wrong with training without weights. Just I personally feel you wont be as good as you could be without.

You've not mentioned your weight compared to your sparring partner. Was this conveniently neglected? Muaythai is a technical as well as an endurance sport. And you have a weight factor. I see plenty of foreign trainees starting to show up very bloated, with back red-full of acne. You guess it. These guys have basic MMA background. But put them into a ring with similar weight but lean to the bone fighter, and then you'll see the useless muscle weight. A little weight training may not hurt, but muaythai fighter should not train weight like a 100 metres sprinter. I see some Thai fighters using weight for neck strengthening, and light weight for bicep curls , but mostly free body weight exercise. Then I see plenty more not using weight.
I agree with the appalling diet consumed by Thai fighters. This is changing.

[Ghost]

You've not mentioned your weight compared to your sparring partner. Was this conveniently neglected? Muaythai is a technical as well as an endurance sport. And you have a weight factor. I see plenty of foreign trainees starting to show up very bloated, with back red-full of acne. You guess it. These guys have basic MMA background. But put them into a ring with similar weight but lean to the bone fighter, and then you'll see the useless muscle weight. A little weight training may not hurt, but muaythai fighter should not train weight like a 100 metres sprinter. I see some Thai fighters using weight for neck see thai boxers trying to compete at higher weight categoristrengthening, and light weight for bicep curls , but mostly free body weight exercise. Then I see plenty more not using weight.
I agree with the appalling diet consumed by Thai fighters. This is changing.

yeah im not going to go into this in too much depth but my personal feeling is that there is more of a place for weight training than is given recognition for in Muay Thai.
I know the thais dont train it, you are quite right with your analysis. Im interested in thai boxing for self degence as well though. not just ring sport. At that point it becomes a very different game and weight training is far more effective.
You are right in that as i added weight training(lean muscle mass increase) i moved up in weihgt/strength therefore had a weight advantage of useful muscle over them. Which is basically my point.

Id rather be competing at 100kg, strong but ripped, than 85kg scrawny.

The MMA guys you describe are not what im talking about.

I would simply never wish to be in the thais weight category or of their build, for a variety of reasons including vanity, power output etc

I would also disagree with muay thai being an endurance sport. 5X3 mins is not endurance its more like interval training.

In thailand they also dont have a clue how to even begin weight training. let alone diet. Train in holland and its a different picture. If you ever go to the vos gym etc youll see a whole different side to MT. Weight training is definately in there.

[sportmuaythai]

I would also disagree with muay thai being an endurance sport. 5X3 mins is not endurance its more like interval training.

In thailand they also dont have a clue how to even begin weight training.

I still say it's an endurance sport. I'm also an occasional road bike racer, and I train intervals. In both sport, you will be attacked in waves, and if you survive to the end, you'll need plenty of endurance to sprint to the fininsh. Again, a few foreign fighters are now coming in with EPO. This is true.
Pls don't under estimate Thai camp owners. If you go to Fairtex, you'll see that they have modern and well equipped weight room at both camps. The Pattaya camp was managed by an exMr Universe, until he was discovered to be dishonest.

[Ghost]

I still say it's an endurance sport. I'm also an occasional road bike racer, and I train intervals. In both sport, you will be attacked in waves, and if you survive to the end, you'll need plenty of endurance to sprint to the fininsh. Again, a few foreign fighters are now coming in with EPO. This is true.
Pls don't under estimate Thai camp owners. If you go to Fairtex, you'll see that they have modern and well equipped weight room at both camps. The Pattaya camp was managed by an exMr Universe, until he was discovered to be dishonest.

fair enough, will agree to disagree with you slightly.
15 mins separated with 4 x 1 minute rests in my book isnt an endurance sport as such.Nor is the intensity levels or heart rate acheived in the ring. Its not an all out sprint either though.

been to fairtex, nice gym, there are better choices though.
been training in thailand for over 2 years+ mate(living in camps), seen a few places now. Still in thailand now. my conclusion is that the dutch way makes more sense.
BUt thailand is better for training clinch knee, plus i like it here.
Its a personal choice, but one i will advocate to others. i fully respect your views though.

[fightstuff]

Hi Ghost,

I always like your responses. They are constructive. However I think this one is a bit of a generalisation.

In thailand they also dont have a clue how to even begin weight training. let alone diet. Train in holland and its a different picture. If you ever go to the vos gym etc youll see a whole different side to MT. Weight training is definately in there.

You are going to get good and bad camps all over the world. To generalise that all Thai camps do not know about weight training and diet is wrong. The same can be said about Holland with the weight training. A camp should be assessed on it's own merits not just what country it is in.

Also sportmuaythai to generalise that all Thais are good with clinch and elbow is a stereotype. Boxers should be assessed one by one and not just by their nationality. It's easy to say that Farang's are good at boxing and kicking whilst Thais are good in the clinch and elbow. This might of been true a few years ago. However things change and the way to evaluate people who practice MT should change as well, because if your thinking is that a farang is good with boxing the way you will approach the fight will be very different to if you looked at the fighters for his personal merits. Do you get where I am coming from?

I am not having a go. I am just saying lets be a little more objective.

[Ghost]

Hi Ghost,

I always like your responses. They are constructive. However I think this one is a bit of a generalisation.

In thailand they also dont have a clue how to even begin weight training. let alone diet. Train in holland and its a different picture. If you ever go to the vos gym etc youll see a whole different side to MT. Weight training is definately in there.

You are going to get good and bad camps all over the world. To generalise that all Thai camps do not know about weight training and diet is wrong. The same can be said about Holland with the weight training. A camp should be assessed on it's own merits not just what country it is in.

Also sportmuaythai to generalise that all Thais are good with clinch and elbow is a stereotype. Boxers should be assessed one by one and not just by their nationality. It's easy to say that Farang's are good at boxing and kicking whilst Thais are good in the clinch and elbow. This might of been true a few years ago. However things change and the way to evaluate people who practice MT should change as well, because if your thinking is that a farang is good with boxing the way you will approach the fight will be very different to if you looked at the fighters for his personal merits. Do you get where I am coming from?

I am not having a go. I am just saying lets be a little more objective.

HI mate, thanks for your input, very welcome.

yes i am guilty of making blanket statements on a regular basis.And i am regularly too blunt, this is a failing on my part. i will try to be fairer whilst getting my point across.
I would still say on average clinch knee is better in thailand as outside of thailand the crowds dont like it, fighters are separated earlier than in the thai ring. so more emphasis is placed on punch and kick in the west, generally.

In thailand entire rounds, in fact entire fights, can be virtually dedicated to clinch+ knee. This is rare outside of thailand. On average id say the clinch knee skills in thailand are better than outside of thailand.

Its also highly noticeable that the boxing skills in the west are superior, on average, to those in thailand.
Im only saying on average of course there are gyms that will fly in face of the above. Ive even been to some myself!

I still feel it is very possible to speak of a "thai style" and a "dutch style". I find them to be fairly distinct.

[sportmuaythai]

Also sportmuaythai to generalise that all Thais are good with clinch and elbow is a stereotype. Boxers should be assessed one by one and not just by their nationality. It's easy to say that Farang's are good at boxing and kicking whilst Thais are good in the clinch and elbow. This might of been true a few years ago. However things change and the way to evaluate people who practice MT should change as well, because if your thinking is that a farang is good with boxing the way you will approach the fight will be very different to if you looked at the fighters for his personal merits. Do you get where I am coming from?

I am not having a go. I am just saying lets be a little more objective.

Hey! Where did you find my post that I made such assumption.

[sportmuaythai]

Dear fightstuff, I hope you'll come back to answer my question above. Mean while, I regret to contradict your post below. Muscle memory is when you lay off muscles building, they will respond and regain their former size and strength quickly when you begin to stimulate them again.
What you talked about below is simply learned skill.

However I just want to talk about muscle memory.
Every muscle in your body has a memory. This basically means that if you train slow, fast, incurately, accurately, etc and keep repeating that routine your muscles will remember. For Example, if you always jab to your opponents chin or to the center spot on a focus mitt then you will be able to hit that target without thinking because your muscles will remember. This leads me on to weight lifting. I read a previous thread stating that bulky muscles makes you slow. This is not true. If the individual have built their muscle mass using fast routines and light weights his muscle memory will be quite quick. However if a person does slow heavy routines this is where it will impact on your speed.

[sportmuaythai]

Do you get where I am coming from?

I am not having a go. I am just saying lets be a little more objective.

I kind of get what you're getting at, but I have no idea where you're coming from. Is the preacher trying to give sermon while fighting his hangover?