Question about training heavy bags

[Khun Kao]

This is one of those areas I have mixed feelings about. I was trained to ALWAYS wrap my hands by my Muay Thai instructor.

However, I eventually began training with another Muay Thai instructor who is certified under a bare-knuckle Muay Thai system, where their philosophy is to use as little padding and support as possible to strengthen up the bones and joints to the repetitve impact training.

I waver between the two in teaching my own classes as well as in my own personal training.

Khun Kao

[goatnipples2002]

THIS IS FOR ALL WHO HIT WITH THE TOP 2 KNUCKLES

darrination you are wrong about hitting with your first two knuckles. If look at your own hand you will see that your middle knuckle is in line not your first. You should hit with your bottom 3 knuckles. READ THIS:


Biomechanics of Punching:

The old-time pugilism punched with a vertical fist. The horizontal fist only came into popular use in sport boxing after the introduction of thickly padded gloves. There was a good reason for this. A vertical fist protects the hand from injury. Two biomechanical principles are key. First is the idea of spreading the force of the strike over as large a portion of the surface of the knuckles as possible. This keeps any one bone of the hand from being subjected to excessive stress. Second is keeping the wrist aligned in as "squared" a position as possible so that when the force of your strike is reflected back, it travels through the center of your wrist and up the middle or "long-axis" of your forearm. If your wrist is not aligned properly, force will be reflected off an at angle rather than through the center of your forearm and your wrist is more likely to bend and suffer damage. Get up from your computer and try this simple experiment. Face the wall and extend your arm completely straight out in front at your own chin level. Make a horizontal fist (palm down) and place it against the wall. Now lean your weight onto your fist so that it is as flat against the wall as possible. You will find that not only will your wrist bend upward, it will bend outward as well in order to keep the fist flat against the wall. Now pivot so that you have a vertical fist (palm inward) while rolling your elbow inward and do the same thing. Your wrist should stay "squared" and your fist should be in good contact with the wall at the same time. The vertical punch keeps the wrist aligned to prevent it from being injured, and allows force to be spread over the surface of the knuckles as much as possible to avoid a fracture of the hand. Think of aiming with the "middle" knuckle of the hand when punching. This is the one that is most in line with the long-axis of your forearm and so will help you keep your wrist properly aligned. Also try and keep the elbow of your punching arm rolled inward as if pointing toward your opposite foot. This not only helps to keep the wrist aligned, but also aligns your forearm with your shoulder for maximum delivery of force when punching.

[darrianation]

Re: THIS IS FOR ALL WHO HIT WITH THE TOP 2 KNUCKLES

[QUOTE]Originally posted by goatnipples2002
[B]darrination you are wrong about hitting with your first two knuckles. If look at your own hand you will see that your middle knuckle is in line not your first. You should hit with your bottom 3 knuckles. READ THIS:


The vertical fist I know it well. Many kung fu systems teach and employ it. Bruce lee used it and taught it.Yes it will protect your hands well enough as long as you use proper form. I totally agree with the article(written by keith myers right?) The artical states the the middle knuckle is most in line with the long axis of your forearm. Actually it slightly medial (toward the thumb) but yes still runs across the middle knuckle, just on the inside. Close enough to call it the middle.

My point is there are many ways to throw a punch safely. The vertical punch (fist) is one. I throw my crosses and hooks with with a vertical fist too. Only it is with the thumb facing the ground. No matter which style you use it is important to use proper technique. Yes it still possible to get injuries with any technique including the vertical fist ( thumb facing up), but proper technique will reduce those chances.Remember even bruce lee and other chinese arts teach other ways of hitting.

Also I dont get the same power from the vertical fist as I do with the western boxing style(modern) punches. Maybe it's the torque. However he verical fist is fast. I'll throw my flicking jab like that.

[goatnipples2002]

I don't use a vertical fist because I can't get all the power I feel I'm capable of, nut I do use a 45 degree punch.

Place your hands side by side. Both hands should be in horizontal fists. Now rotate each hand outward (with thumb knuckles touching) until you form a "bottomless triangle" on the in side of your hands. Each fist should roughly be at a 45 degree angle. Which makes a 90 degree angle hence the phrase "bottomless triangle". Now pull one hand back to your jaw line. This the way your fist should makr contact. This is the safest position for your wrist. Now on to the contact surface. If you punch as stated before; aim for the center line of your attacker and you will make contact with your bottom 3 knuckles only. this is the best KO postion as for as the target, the wrist/hand structure and contact surface.

[darrianation]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by goatnipples2002
[B]I don't use a vertical fist because I can't get all the power I feel I'm capable of, nut I do use a 45 degree punch.

Much more natural. Kind to the elbows too.

[retired]

your right about wrapping your hands this is mainly used to protect your knuckles & wrists when fighting with gloves on but doesn't strenthen them for fighting without them. this is best done with weighted wrist exersizes & bare knuckle pressups on hard surfaces.

as for punching correctly outside im sorry to disagree but i think this is crap!!!
you cant always fight within the rules or situations which suit your body & throwing a correct punch doesn't always protect you as you dont know what position/movement/reaction your opponent will take & if he's trained in elbow defence against a punch which involves placing your hand over the top of your head until it reaches the back of your neck and your elbow lifts up & points forward - this used against a forward travelling punch (or twist your body for hook) can totally f**k up your knuckles as iv'e seen it done, so no i wouldn't assume a "correct punch" will always work.

but everybody has their own opinion

[goatnipples2002]

LET ME CORRECT THAT STATEMENT

Retired, I don't know who your talking to or about, but if it's me listen up, youngster!

Who ever told you bare knuckle push ups strengthen your knuckles lied to you. Tap your head 2 or 3 times cause someone filled your head with shit. Wrist curl & etc. strengthen your forearms which help stabilize your wrist, but punching calls for a different kind of wrist strength, a totally different kind of discipline. Go to this website, you might, better yet you WILL learn something.

http://www.ironcrane.com/html/irncrs.html

"Elbow defense" LOL,. What you're talking about is a punch/hand destruction, I use them too, I really love kick/leg destructions. You don't need to touch the back of your neck to execute a punch destruction. That would make your arm do extra shit it doesn't have to do. If you were in a boxer's stance (the stance I fight in) simply raise your arm so your elbow is at your attackers punch level.

I'm talking about the proper punch postion, mainly the position of your wrist and hand for the maximum amount of power as well as the maximum amount of safety.

I'm quite sure everybody knows their attacker isn't going to do exactly what we predict or wish, that's why you try and create the best position for simultaneous offensive and defensive.

No attack or defence is going to work 100% of the time. If the people on this site don't already know that then go fight with one offensive technique and see how long you last!!!!!

I'm not trying to put you down just let you know the correct info before some youngster reads what you wrote and becomes misinformed. I'm no kickboxer or boxer I'm a street fighter so the only rule I have is make it home alive.

[retired]

sorry mate
you can please some of the people all the time
and all of the people some of the time

pressups on hard surface will toughen your knuckles a little im not saying they become solid but they are not as soft as they would normally be and building up to a nice hard bag punching differing angles will help aswell

i wont go into all the conditioning because it takes to long

and no im no streetfighter im just saying what works for some doesnt work for everybody

[goatnipples2002]

No hard feelinz

Now that we are informally introduced we can talk fighting.

I didn't mean to come across like an asshole, but i hate it when people learn the wrong thing then it's passed on from person to person.

The only info that should be passed person to person should be exact info that has been learned from experience not what someone THINKS will work. (not you ppl in general).

Why do ppl learn to fight for fun/comp instead of learning to stop muggers and rapist? Why learn to fight in the ring instead of the streets where it really counts?

[eighteenvisions]

FORM

what works for some may not work for all. nobody can say a big guy should have the same form as a petite woman it doesn't mean either is wrong. what is field tested and approved for some may have failed miserably with someone else. you also have to take in account your opponet and their knowledge of fighting

[retired]

im not disrespecting you goatnipples2002 but:

1. have you ever fought in the ring in full contact

2. how did you condition for "street fighting"

3. what's your fight record on the street

4. the people you fought were they just joe average or had they fought before

5. the people i train with use their skills on the street every night (bouncing etc..)

6. thaiboxing is very basic at it's roots & is well suited to "street fighting"

7. just because people fight in the ring this doesnt mean their no good on the street, just try takeing a few elbows or knees & find out how tough you are or how well your guard works.

8. if im to close i would use a downward diagonal elbow across the face & not a punch (this will do more damage than any punch)

[StrongKong]

A friend kicked a heavy punch bag down the thaiboxing gym one time, not knowing how hard they are.

Within 10 secs, the distance it took him to walk from the bag to the dressing room, he had a bruise the size of his fist on his shin.

[goatnipples2002]

Nice Q's, but I don't think ur ready for the A's

1. I haven't fought in the ring I see no purpose to it. Why would you want to. I grew up in housing projects and the ghetto as some might call it, but I call it "home". There's enough "ring" fighting around here for you and 5,000 other people.

2. How does anybody condition for streetfighting.....be in the streets.....I grew up in the streets. I used to gang bang, but I went to prison for 3 years when I was 18 and that's when I REALLY learn how to bang!

3. I've been in too many fights to know my record, but I'll tell you the same thing I told my friend (18visions); in the streets you need to get rid of the bullshit idea of win or lose. If you lose you die if you win you make it home to kiss your loved ones and if you get injured and you still able to make it haome your lucky. I've gotyten lucky alot and made it home everynight. That's the difference between streetfighters and ring fighters the mentality of "winning and losing".

4. I don't come from no candy ass environment. I didn't grow up in a white uppity community. Where I grew up there's drugs, gangs and thugz everywhere. I don't know about where your from, but in America we have housing projects, ghettos, and low income housing developments. Everybody in my hood laughs at violence. Somebody may get shot today or even stabbed. We find that shit funny which is very sad. Like they say your a product of your environment. It's an everyday thing in the places I lived. I'm black in America I've been "conditioned" for this shit all my life!!!!! I mean dog I went to prison when I was only 18. ATF himmed me up! I was only 18; I went in okay and came out a negative evil racist (I'm better with the race thing now). White America doesn't like people like me because I'm still negative just educated now.

5. Bouncing ain't shit, wait til some pussies jump you 10 or 20 times then you'll BEGIN to understand! Sometimes I wish I was white, I wouldn't have so many people against me.

6. Yes you are very correct thai boxing is street effective, yet the ring fighting mentality isn't. I practice muay thai techs, boxing, kara-te techs, and kung fu techs. My main focus is on boxing and muay thai.

7. I take everything, you shoul've read my profile, it says traditional conditioning methods I borrowed some of the conditioning techs from the arts I mentioned earlier. Like I'm really gonna just let you strike me .

8. Don't talk to me like I'm some young punk. You don't think I elbow, knee, headbutt, punch, and kick. Like I said there's NO RULES ON THE STREETS so change that ring mentality and you'll be okay, maybe!!!!!

Oh I get it your no from the US so I can't expect you to understand the shit blacks go through in America. It's pretty ****in unjust for us. Oh well god will make it greater later.

[goatnipples2002]

That's dumb

strong kong bruises the size of your fist and bigger means internal bleeding possibly. Put some dit da jow on it, quick.

[eighteenvisions]

i enjoy the aspect of ring fighting becuz of the street!!!! people are pussy's now, as soon as someone starts getting worked someone always wants to pull a gun or use a weapon! charge that ass woopin to tha game! a little kid could kill someone with a gun i don't see the satisfaction. now breakin someone down from limb to limb takes a lot more than pulling a trigger!ring fighter or street fighter you gotta give some respect for being a fighter and not a pussy who act tough behind a gun. one more thing i like the ring becuz bithes wanna run their mouth then hide behind their friends or automatically assume they'll help!!!!!!!!