Biting from the clinch

[eXcessiveForce]

okay, as you begin to clinch the person goes for your carotid artery with a bite. How do you defend other than with a head butt?

[Khun Kao]

???

What the F kind of question is that???

But, assuming you're serious, did it occur to you to just push them away?

Khun Kao

[darrianation]

I'd knee that F'n F*** and elbow him til' cows shit pies, then I'd go to his house and shoot his Mama!

And oh yea what Khun Kao just said made sense.

[ryanhall]

Either of those suggestions could work, but it apparently hasn't occurred to either of you that when you are clinching someone, their head is close enough to you that you probably wouldn't be able to see the bite coming. Getting bitten in the neck is not something that most people (anyone) would respond rationally (in a trained, controlled manner) to. You'd probably freak out, at least for a second--in which their opportunity to cause real damage exists. If they sit there with the teeth in for more than a second--unless they're actually biting out your carotid--the shock of being bitten will likely wear off and you will respond.

Be careful not to look at a situation from a sparring standpoint. When someone bites, it is done with rage and conviction--they are not your buddy or training partner. This is something that tends to take a person out of their game so to speak.

[eXcessiveForce]

no it hasn't happen to my knowledge. But I was thinking about self defense and many people on the board place MT high on the list of arts useful for self defense. And recently I read an article on Demi Barbarito's site in which he dealt with the clinch.

The I thought what if I was fighting for my life and someone who could do me serious damage tried to put me in a clinch. And the first thing that came to mind was to move forward try to tear out the carotid artery. As I imagined it would be devistating to most people. I figured most people would attempt to abandon the clinch and break off their attack and try to assess their situation. Which would give a great opportunity to capitalize on the moment and do some follow up.

Then I tried to figure out what If I were to clinch someone and they tried to bite my neck I thought possibly to drop the head and drop and bend the knees and then come up hard with a head butt with the top of the head under their jaw or into their nose depending on the angle of their head. at the same time move form the clinch to a position where one hand is under their jaw and the other is behind their head and at the least control the head and best case try to snap the neck.


I had heard of a fight where a guy got in another guys face and the smaller guy grabbed and bit the tip of the larger mans nose off. And then attacked. The smaller man won but the details after the bite are not clear.


Just like I was messing around with my Girlfriend who is also in MA and I was trying to put her in a clinch. She got a hand free and grabbed my groin. Now it may be hard to bring somebody down with that but it might cause some to break off the clinch. Specially if they hand the grip strength to start tearing the skin. Try it on somebody like tyson and after he's had enough he might just make you his boyfriend though.

I used that during a self defense situation once when I was in a vascular neck restraint and I wasn't able to break this guys hold, he was too damn big. I grabbed him as hard as I could and all I heard was "oh Baby" That is about as demoralizing as it gets. The guy just didn't care how much I hurt him. If had really been for real i'd have been a gonner. Lucky for me that he had to start out with the hold he didn't get it with me resisting.

[chris davis 200]

here you are highlighting the difference between ring sports and the reality of fighting.

I thnk that although MT has some brutle techniqes it is fairly open to quite simple techniques like groing strikes with the knees or hand, eye gouges etc. Things that you dont need to worry about when your opponent has boxing gloves on!!

In reality when thinking about street combat, If you are in a situation where you are getting kneed and elbowed to s*** then you will try anything. (if you are not knocked out!!)

Biting, eyegouges, fish hooks, groin strikes and grabs, hair pulling, raking your nails across someones face, etc etc.

These are all things that need to be concidered when fighting an animal thug on the street!

Remember that even the very best trained fighters do this sort of thing when they are on a looser - TYSON mmmm ear anyone!!!!

Cheers
chris

[chris davis 200]

Oh by the way - the club that i used to work at was closed mainly because someone had their nose completely biten off!!!! So i know this does happen!!!

cheers
chris

[darrianation]

Ryan

"Getting bitten in the neck is not something that most people (anyone) would respond rationally (in a trained, controlled manner) to".

Ryan, thats exactly what I'm describing a totaly freakout. I think i'd be pretty pissed and go crazy on the guy. I'm not exactly sure what i'd do. I guess I need to think up a contingency plan.

[chris davis 200]

dont clinch on the street - there is a plan. Learn an efective throwing style and smash the person into the ground instead of clinching.

Just a thought.

[darrianation]

I have clinched on the street. I have good clinching skills from my MT training though. If you get the guy’s head down under your chin and keep him off balance he shouldn’t be able to bite you. I usually don’t keep the clinch for all that long just depends though. I like to knee the guy twice then push his head into a in coming round kick.

[Thai Bri]

I think its a brilliant question.

I'm not sure they'd be able to easily get the carotid, as there'd be so much skin, fat and muscle near it. they'd have to "pinch" it and be very lucky to get it.

I once eard that pulling a bited in towards you, as hard as you can, can nullify alot of his force. But I have never put it to the test and wouldn't want to.

Thanks EF. I'm going to work more on defence against bites. I've been neglecting it.

[Khun Kao]

"...but it apparently hasn't occurred to either of you that when you are clinching someone, their head is close enough to you that you probably wouldn't be able to see the bite coming."

But you could FEEL it!

I'm serious, part of what makes Muay Thai clinchwork so intricate and devastating is the sensitivity you develop to your opponents body movement. I often will have my advanced students practice their clinchwork with their eyes closed, because you don't NEED to see what your opponent is doing, you can FEEL it!

Another point I'd make is that if I am clinching someone, I sure am not going to be pulling their head into my neck. I'm going to be pulling their head down towards hips. So my opponents best chance for biting me will be if they bite my knee as its being planted in their face.

IF my opponent and I are fighting for control in the clinch, NEITHER of us will be in such a position to initiate a bite, IMHO.

The only times I can realistically envision a bite occurring to the neck would be if:

#1- I have control of my opponent in a clinch and initiate the bite myself

#2- My opponent and I have stalemated in the clinch and are stalling. Often when this happens, we each have one arm wrapped deeply behind our opponents neck, so that the nape of the neck is locked into the crook of the arm. Even at this point attempting a bite would be awkward at best.

Maybe I'm just not envisioning this whole scenario right....

Khun Kao

[dave_UK_MT]

Spot on about feeling your opponents movement Khun Kao, your halfway to becoming pretty good once you've got that mastered
If your any good at clinching then as soon as your opponent drops his head from the upright position you should be getting your elbows tucked under their collar bones cupping, the back of the head and using your hand as a pivot point for your arms to squeeze on the neck.

you can't bite anything when someone (who can do it properly) has got you in the submissive clinch position....your basically fuked!!

[darrianation]

You said it dave!

[eXcessiveForce]

okay let me see if I can put out a better visual picture of what I'm talking about.

You are facing your opponent in the real world. as some point you must try to make contact to go to the clinch. Arm comes up instead of the purpose resisting the immediately let you pull them into the clinch but they continue to move forward turn thier head to the side and then let their head move to your shoulder and they bite. They could just as easily go for a bite to the cheek or nose.

I'm all for sensitivity but one thing I wondered was who actually considered that it could happen. Things are much harder to defend against when they are not expected. If you sense they are moving that is one thing. If you sense that they are moving to a bite that is another. If you are focusing on standard attacks from the clinch it is likely that you may miss the bite.