Advanced Certification in the Thai Boxing Association of the US

[chalambok]

Prologue: Currently to be an Apprentice-Level instructor in the TBA, you must complete a basic test, consisting of several phases, including but not limited to a knowledge test, terminology, form and wai kru tests, and a physical portion which is 2 rounds showing you can defend yourself by doing 40 kicks and 30 skip knees per round. For Advanced-Level you must have 5 students successfully attain apprentice-level instructor, and pass a written test.

Precis: Should the Advanced Level Certification be amended by the Association to include knowledge of Krabi-Krabong?

Pro: The TBA has positioned itself as the arbiter of all Thai National Martial Arts in the United States and, through President and Founder Grandmaster Surachai Sirisute, many other countries around the world. As such, there is a tacit responsibility to further the promotion and promulgation of Krabi-Krabong.

Con: The TBA, although originally set up to be an association of teachers, has devolved into an organization of fighting practitioners, almost exclusively training for the ring.

Please make a contribution. With the Pacific Northwest Muay Thai Camp coming in 3 weeks, it is an opportune time to air this grievance. Let us know if you think Krabi-Krabong should be a requirement for advanced certification. Thank you - Stephen M Wilson

[fugetsu]

instructor curriculum

Ajarn Steve-
I agree with your suggestion--the Thaiboxing Association of the USA should make mandatory the study of Krabi-Krabong for instructor qualification. I would go one step further, however, and say that all would-be beginning level instuctors should have basic Krabi-Krabong training to qualify as an instuctor under Ajarn Chai. Even more far-reaching, the Association should make retro-active these standards for its current instructors--giving them a year or two to make up the required hours of Krabi-Krabong training.
The institutionalization of Krabi-Krabong would do much to sharpen the quality of incoming beginning instuctors, as well as to increase the knowledge of current instuctors.
Making everyone in the Thaiboxing Association of the USA study Krabi-Krabong would, of course, deeped the communal knowledge of Thai arts. The venue would necessarily have to take seminar form, since all of us cannot sell our houses and fly to Bangkok to live and train for a year. A seminar venue would also be a chance to promote those who, under the supervision and encouragement of Ajarn Chai, have spent a lot of time and money studying Krabi-Krabong in Thailand and are attempting-rather unsuccessfully I am afraid-to spread the arts in the US.
So, in short, I support the move to institutionalize Krabi-Krabong curriculum in the instructor qualifications for the Thaiboxing Association of the USA.
Alex Bay
beginning instructor
(at least 20 hours Krabi-Krabong training)

[ghostwolf0]

Okay, lets go at it this way: you say the TBA has positioned itself as the arbitar of all things Thai......who, outside of the TBA acknowledges and accepts this position? If the statement is true, then yes, they definately have a duty and responsibliity to promote Krabi Krabong. I have two thoughts on this: 1) the TBA does not represent all things Thai...in fact all they do represent is muay Thai and even then it is with a very narrow focus....ring fighting and they do not do a good job of promoting or representing even that aspect. 2) I do not think Krabi Krabong should be presented in such a way as to have the masses believe it should be studied to improve your muay Thai. It is my opinion that should it be "pushed in" with the TBA, KK will be thought of as an adjunct to Thai boxing as opposed the original art. Also I am concerned that it will end up becoming "jkd'd" when it hits the Inosanto crowd..and quite frankly all hope will be lost as it will become an ugly, motherless bastard that will be of no benefit to those who would practice it and a disgrace to those who have. As an aside, if Chai thinks its so important, why hasn't he simply ordered it? After all it is simply his call.

thanks

[Tim Mousel]

The kick requirement has dropped to 40? I thought it was still 60.

I don't think KK should be required. Maybe encouraged but not required. If people wanted to study KK they would. I personally don't have an interest in being "coerced" into studying KK and I'll bet there are a lot of others that wouldn't like that either.

Tim

[Khun Kao]

Let me begin by saying that I am not a member of, certified under, or even trained under the TBA.

My personal thoughts are that forcing Krabi Krabong upon Association members is a bad idea. Though Krabi Krabong and Muay Thai share common roots, they are separate arts. The Arts of Krabi Krabong and Muay Thai diverged centuries ago. Sure, many of the techniques are the same between the two arts, but Muay Thai is NOT merely "unarmed" Krabi Krabong (as some have seemed to suggest in the past)

If the TBA is attempting to assume the role as "Purveyors of all things Thai", then will they also require their instructors to learn the arts of Muay Boran (bare-knuckle Muay Thai), Muay Chao Cher (Thai MMA fighting), and Lerdrit (Thai Military Arts)?

The arts listed above do not even include all Thai martial arts, just the main ones that I know of off the top of my head. There are more than that.

I think the TBA should stick with Ring Muay Thai. If students and fighters are interested in expanding upon their knowledge base, then they should be encouraged to do so. But being required to does not make sense to me.

Well, unless it is an attempt to generate additional revenue through training and certification programs for all TBA affiliated schools. But my understanding is that the TBA doesn't operate "that way".

Khun Kao

[Thai Bri]

Obviously I'm not in the organisation either. But I won't be shy.

I'm with Tim. To me it seems like a case of someone in power thinks its a good idea, so they're imposing it on others. They may dress it up, but thats the extent of it.

What will be the next thing on their list?

[terry]

I believe the role of the TBA is to promote the Art of Muay Thai and to serve the needs of its community. Emphasis should be placed on responsibility, excellence, humility and service, not on ownership. For the record, the TBA's does not claim sole distribution rights to Muay Thai or knowledge thereof, nor it is to exclusively represent Muay Thai. To do so would be inflamatory.

I'd like to help promote KK because I like it. I would recommend that people study KK. I think, however, that placing a requirement of this type in the Muay Thai requirements may do more harm than good. Perhaps a parallel certification in KK through the TBA alongside Muay Thai would be more appropriate.

Terry

[Normal]

Krabi Krabong testing and other thoughts......

Hello,
I would just like to add my thoughts on this subject of Krabi Krabong & the TBA.

First, Sorry I cant fly out to Oregon for camp but as Steve knows I wholeheartedly support the growth of KK as another aspect of the Thai culture. But as for me, I'm personally not a participant in the art and think it would do more harm then good to make it a requirement. (I doubt I would pass its testing, but several of my friends and students have studied it and seem to love it and have become instructors.)

Second, our Instructors Certificates are acknowledged and signed by the Thai Counsel General of the Los Angeles CA Embassy, Mr. Sumat Wasantapruek, so we do have some validity in saying that we represent the Thai Culture to some extent. (as a side note, the TBA is proud to be presenting the first "Fairtex Classic" National Open Tournament, this September, check out the Fairtex Gear website if you want more info)

Third, as for the "Inosanto crowd" slam I think if you were to fully assess the contribution that Dan Inosanto has contributed to the education of the Martial Arts masses, it would most likely come down on the positive side and that if he hadn't started convincing that Ajarn Chai start doing seminars in the 70's we wouldn't have a MMA / Ultimate fighting scene like it is today. They both layed the ground work for alot of the major players of today.

Four, the testing requirements were 60 kicks / 35 knees as last I knew it. (But unless its one of my students taking the test, all I care about is kicking the shit out of the "Testee")

Just my opinion and I hope it encourages others to voice theirs, this is a good forum, keep up the good work guys.

[Khun Kao]

Normal is correct!!!

I would like to again emphasize that someone's interest in Krabi Krabong should be ENCOURAGED, but not REQUIRED. We've had a few Krabi Krabong students under my instructor, and it we really enjoyed the exchange of training ideas and techniques, but at the end of the day, Krabi Krabong was still Krabi Krabong, Muay Thai was Muay Thai.

We've also done some really, really cool demo's and exhibitions of Muay Thai and Krabi Krabong. But they are two seperate arts despite their shared history.

Khun Kao

[fugetsu]

further thoughts on Krabi-Krabong

I agree that the "JKD as art bastardizer" claim is misplaced. I also agree that Guru Dan has done a lot to promote Ajarn Chai and Thaiboxing. As for those who are his students, but think that institutionalizing Krabi-Krabong into the insturctor certification process is a bit "coercive," I would ask if you feel that way about how Thaiboxing is an institutionalized part of Guru Dan's instructor requirements? Guru Dan has said--see interview on this website--that he wants his people to do Thaiboxing for its various benefits. So, he requires that all apprentice instructors take their Thai tests-that is, become instructors under Ajarn Chai-before they can advacne to associate instructor level (after which, if I remember correctly, they can open their own schools/academies). So, Guru Dan has "required" an art that he believes is important to acquire. Are there negative feelings towards the institutionalization of Thaiboxing in the JKD/Kali curriculum?
In all acutallity, Ajarn Steve and I first started to talk about Krabi-Krabong requirements a few years back. The inspiration for it came directly from the way Guru Dan has "institutionalized" Thaiboxing in his instructor certification process. So, some credit must be given to Guru Dan for influencing the idea in the first place.
Allow me to be devil's advocate for a moment, (please do take this as a slam on Guru Dan's people, for I am a student of Chris Clarke, full insturctor, and would still be lost in a classical mess world if it were not for his guidande, and I have a profound respect for Guru Dan and his group of students), and ask whether there would be less (or any) resistance to Krabi-Krabong requirements if Guru Dan, not Ajarn Chai, made them mandatory for his instructor qualifications?

I hope this adds to an already full, and fruitful discussion about this topic here.
Alex Bay

[ghostwolf0]

Okay lets try this again..untwist your panties..I am not knocking Dan Inosanto..as a person, I like him, as an innovator and as an instructor hes great! But over the last twenty plus years I have never seen any art go into JKD and come out the same...lets face it, that is the whole premise of JKD, "take what is useful". I'm not saying its wrong and I'm not saying they can't kick ass. What I am saying is that it is not their goal to preserve and promote a specific art. Krabi Krabong, to my understanding, is not a static art. It evolves just like the rest; but the principles, techniques and philosopies that guide that evolution are specific and unique and I just don't want to see them get lost or discarded as someones personal expression of JKD. Get it?

[Tim Mousel]

Guro Dan no longer requires his instructors to take the Thaiboxing certification test. He required it at one time to make sure his "instructors had heart", as he put it.

To become a well rounded it is important to experience many arts. Because of all Thaiboxing has to offer it is an important system. Guro Dan stresses the importance of training in the striking, trapping, grappling and weapon arts to become well rounded.

Thaiboxing doesn't have the same approach. Ajarn Chai does recommend people study grappling but his emphasis is not on becoming well rounded. His emphasis in on muay Thai, not KK.

I think there would be less resistance if Guro Dan required it because of the philosophy of trying to become well rounded. I feel it is much different for those who wish to study muay Thai.

If I go to a boxing gym, it's cause I want to learn boxing. If all of a sudden I was told that before I could progress in boxing I had to learn fencing I would find a different boxing gym.

Most of Guro Dan's students/instructors enjoy training in a variety of arts. I don't think the same holds true for muay Thai practitioners.

I am all for encouraging the study of KK or any other art. I am against the TBA making it a requirement.

Tim

[fugetsu]

training instructors vs. fighters

Thank you for the update on Guru Dan's instructor certification process.
I wonder if we are not getting off track a bit. Ajarn Chai has set out to create an army of Muay Thai insturctors, not fighters. We, his first or second generation of students are then to produce the fighters, and it moves forward from there. So, maybe we should think of this in terms of instructor training, not simply going to the gym to learn boxing. Let me use the example of history (as Guru Dan often does), a history department with a graduate school curriculum trains students-future teachers-in area and field specific subjects, for example, Japanese history or the history of science. There are requirements for what classes one has to take. There are also requirements that one takes classes outside of one's field in order to be a better-rounded or well-rounded historian. Now, graduate student's don't change history departments and universities because they have to take a wide range of classes. Even if one's major is Modern Japanese history, a class in ancient history or even in Japanese archaeology has many benefits--especially for when one becomes advances to the professorial level. In short, a varied curriculum creates better instructors.
Is the above "liberal arts" or the Guru Dan-diversified approach not applicable to Ajarn Chai's group (a group of instructors)?
Alex Bay

[Tim Mousel]

fugetsu, you've got a very good point and I can agree with it to a degree.

Where I disagree is that muay Thai is a "specialty" area. Most involved in muay Thai train muay Thai because they are interested in muay Thai. If they were interested in KK, they would train in KK. For me it is as simple as that.

I don't think your viewpoint is wrong and I don't think mine is either. They both have their strengths. However, I'll still agree with myself

If KK is going to be a part of the TBA curriculum, I see the best solution would be to offer it as a separate curriculum and separate certification process. Seems that would keep everyone happy as individuals could train in the arts they have an interest in.

To use another Guro Dan example...he offers 3 certifications, Jun Fan, Filipino Martial Arts and Silat. Some instructors are certified in all 3, only 2 or just 1. They aren't forced to become certified in all 3.

Tim

[fugetsu]

more good points

Tim-
I agree, there is no single "correct" answer, rather, a number of well-informed view-points. Yours, of course, is well informed.
To draw off of your Guru Dan example, he certifies people in "Filipino arts" which includes both Kali and Silat/Panatukan aspects. I am assuming that one cannot just do blade/stick training, while neglecting the boxing aspects (and visa-versa) to be qualified to teach Filipino arts.
This brings us back to Ajarn Steve's original question: is the Thaiboxing Association to only promote ring-oriented Muay Thai/Kickboxing, or does it have a more loftier raison d'etre, that being to spread Thai arts in general, in this case meaning Krabi-Krabong as well? If so, then insturctors should be more diversified in Thai weapon arts. Again, this may lead our discussion in another direction.
I would say, however, that if Ajarn Chai wants his all his instructors--and this is a (semi-) direct quote I believe--to do Krabi-Krabong, and since he is the President and founder of the association, he should make it mandatory for instructor certification. He can "encourage" all he wants, but in reality, encouragement is not going to move the relished Krabi attributes from the Buddhai Sawan to the Thaiboxing Association. A parallel form of certification would also be uneffective for spreading the art, since many would simply choose to focus on Thaiboxing exclusively.
Again, the question, as I see it, is not how we should facilitate individual exploration into Thai weapons arts, but what form should the institutionalization of the Krabi-Krabong cirriculum in the Thaiboxing Association take? (Since Ajarn Chai wants all his instructors to do Krabi-Krabong).
Alex