Traditional Asian Martial Arts and Ballet.

[MuayThaiFighter]

Traditional martial arts are similar to ballet in the sense that they both have their own forms and meant for entertainment and a way of expressing oneself.

In other words traditional arts is meant mostly for show.The fancy moves of TKD,such as the spin kicks can be compared to a person doing ballet or modern dancing kicking their legs up in the air because it looks cool.The stances of many traditional arts can often also be seen in modern dancing such as the crane movement balancing on one leg and throwing arms in air although it is not always obvious.

The shiko dachi in karate and other traditional arts is also seen by rappers dancing.

So how effective can these stances and spin kicks be?Well they are effective for entertaining people with others dancing,but as far as self-defense completely useless as far as I am concerned.

However like dancing all martial arts can be used as a way of expressing oneself whether through forms or self-defense.However not all martial arts styles are meant for self-defense whether some realize it or not.

I for one express myself through full contact sparring,some do so through point sparring and kata.

If solely expressing yourself is more important to you than doing self-defense stuff like Karate,Tkd,Tai chi,Kung Fu and many others are fine but if self-defense is just as important or the only thing important to you then an art with realistic self-defense is the better choice as in arts like MuayThai, wrestling, jujitsu, judo, pankration,shooto,and many more are the way to go.

To me self-defense is just as important as expressing myself and I express myself through self-defense.

Who here would agree with what I have written and feel they can relate?

Do not forget this thread is just meant for different opinions and discussions,I know there will be some people who disagree with my opinion but that is okay.

If you feel offended then don't bother writing anything in here,I do not want to see insult after insult and have people arguing.

[jules]

Myuai Thai is a "traditional martial art"..... It' has been around centuries...

[MuayThaiFighter]

Originally posted by jules
Myuai Thai is a "traditional martial art"..... It' has been around centuries...

True and very good point,but let me explain what I mean and most people mean by traditional arts.I am talking about type of arts that insist in teaching and learning in a certain way without change.Teaching pre-arranged techniques known as katas.

Before you say it,yes there has been some changes in arts like karate that is why there are several different styles coming from different senseis,however the meaning behind each one is the same.

Kata is the essense of karate as full contact sparring is what MuayThai is about and has always been about.

Now to the point traditional arts to me are those who base their arts solely on old methods of pre-arranged movements and point sparring.

When I say traditional arts I am talking about the asian art forms not the arts that teach actual self-defense.

MuayThai has some similarity to the old teachings as well but these teachings do change in some ways.Unlike other styles they do not teach the old fashioned useless pre-arranged movements of styles like karate when it was first invented,and do not practice point sparring.

MuayThai has always been an art of self-defense.

[jules]

I agree with 99% of what you are saying. But i would also add that there are many styles of TKD also. (even if they are unknown and opressed by the WTF). In the end. Styles must change and "mature" in to better styles. As i have stated before i agree with 99% of what you have said.

[chris davis 200]

Here we go again!!!!

TMA's - and you group TKD and Karate in that group?

TKD is classed as modern - Many Karate Styles are also Classed as modern. They were developed in the main in the 1900's

If you are talking about TMA's then actually talk about them - grouping TMA's into the group of Kata heavy arts is Just NOT CORRECT.

Many many TMA's with long lineages are taught with FULL contact sparring and contain a more effective weapon base than MT - as in grappling & striking.

MT itself is a traditional martial art in every sense of the word.

If you have a beef with certain arts becasue of their training practices then fine - say something about those arts and justify the points. Do not collectivley group modern arts that you dont like and TMA's together cause you think they are the same. They are not.

Kata is the essense of karate as full contact sparring is what MuayThai is about and has always been about.

Kata is the essence of the spiritual development of Karate, (much like the pre fight dance of MT - no useful techniques there is there?) It is used to calm the mind and prepare the body and joints for action.

Kyokushinkai karate had a focus on sparring and conditioning that easily rivaled that of MT. Do your homework before making such bold statements.

When I say traditional arts I am talking about the asian art forms not the arts that teach actual self-defense.

What is that supposed to mean - excuse my ignorance - do you mean asian arts in general - or just the likes of karate and TKD - if you are talking about ones that dont teach self defence - then surely MT is in that group.

It teaches you to fight in a ring sport environment not really the street. If it did you wouldnt have boxing gloves, you would defend throws, grabs to the balls, hair pulling etc.

Unlike other styles they do not teach the old fashioned useless pre-arranged movements of styles like karate when it was first invented,and do not practice point sparring.

Do you work out? do you do conditioning on your muscles and bones?

I am sure you do.

Kata is not a pre arranged way to fight someone on the street - it is a method (and very effective one) of creating strong muscles, stable (but fluid) stances and stength in the joints so that they can take impacts etc. KATA ARE NOT FOR FIGHTING - THEY ARE FOR TRAINING.

just SOME holes in this massive generalisation that you have posted.

No offence meant - just - well - some corrections.

And for the record i practice neither Karate or TKD.

Cheers
Chris

[MuayThaiFighter]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
Here we go again!!!!

TMA's - and you group TKD and Karate in that group?

TKD is classed as modern - Many Karate Styles are also Classed as modern. They were developed in the main in the 1900's

If you are talking about TMA's then actually talk about them - grouping TMA's into the group of Kata heavy arts is Just NOT CORRECT.

Many many TMA's with long lineages are taught with FULL contact sparring and contain a more effective weapon base than MT - as in grappling & striking.

MT itself is a traditional martial art in every sense of the word.

If you have a beef with certain arts becasue of their training practices then fine - say something about those arts and justify the points. Do not collectivley group modern arts that you dont like and TMA's together cause you think they are the same. They are not.

Kata is the essence of the spiritual development of Karate, (much like the pre fight dance of MT - no useful techniques there is there?) It is used to calm the mind and prepare the body and joints for action.

Kyokushinkai karate had a focus on sparring and conditioning that easily rivaled that of MT. Do your homework before making such bold statements.

What is that supposed to mean - excuse my ignorance - do you mean asian arts in general - or just the likes of karate and TKD - if you are talking about ones that dont teach self defence - then surely MT is in that group.


It teaches you to fight in a ring sport environment not really the street. If it did you wouldnt have boxing gloves, you would defend throws, grabs to the balls, hair pulling etc.

Do you work out? do you do conditioning on your muscles and bones?

I am sure you do.

Kata is not a pre arranged way to fight someone on the street - it is a method (and very effective one) of creating strong muscles, stable (but fluid) stances and stength in the joints so that they can take impacts etc. KATA ARE NOT FOR FIGHTING - THEY ARE FOR TRAINING.

just SOME holes in this massive generalisation that you have posted.

No offence meant - just - well - some corrections.

And for the record i practice neither Karate or TKD.

Cheers
Chris

I put TKD and Karate in that group because they really do fit in that group,like I said when I say traditional I am just talking about arts that do useless katas,but we're not here to talk about whether katas are useless or not.

Pre fight of dance of MT,what dancing movements are you talking about? Every move in MT is useful.Ever been kicked by a MuayThai round house kick or been elbowed in temple or chin,or recieved a MT knee kick to head or chest?Probably not or you wouldn't speak crap like that.We also do stand up wrestling.

Whatever bud,you obviously know nothing about MuayThai,because self-defense is exactly what MuayThai teaches.You are right you are ignorant.

Ya you are right it does teach us to fight in a sport environment,but it also is good for the street.We learn to fight not do forms.We don't learn to grab to the balls or hair pulling because we are not their to go to that extent on anyone just like in any other style.However arts like MT are the closest you will get to a real fight.Training is never the actual fight but some arts are closer to it then others.

Yes I do work out and do conditioning.

Actually katas are pre-arranged movements (shows you know very little about katas) and the the hidden techniques in each kata are supposed to represent some self-defense as well as create strong muscles,strength in joints and take impact as you said.

However I never said that it was the way karate people fight.

In reality those hidden techniques in karate would never be any good on street,they may create some strong muscles,but what good is it if you have nothing to use those muscles for in karate besides the forms itself,strength in joints!!! hmm funny how karate made my knees messed up.

I don't need you to tell me what katas are I took Goju Ryu karate for 12yrs.

What kind of impact exactly? Snapping kicks and punches instead of going right through with them,I don't consider it really impact although a person can still sort of get hurt,try getting kicked by a MT fighter it will hurt more because we don't snap our kicks or punches we go straight through with them,that is what I call impact.

Why work on strengthing stances that are useless?

No doubt katas are good for balance,focus,and co-ordination though.

Looks like to me you need to do your homework.

If you practice neither karate or TKD why would I need your corrections when I have done karate,and why bother defending it?

[IPON]

MTF - I think you are referring to theatre opra like the peking opera in china, but oyu can't callapse the styles of China, korea, japan an okinawa. Into one group while there there is a heavy influence from China these style are different......and I am sorry to say Yes very effective MT is not the only art on the plant. Can a MT fighter beat an legitimate shoalin, wing chun, HunGar, Praying Mantis or eagale claw fighter you cannot honestly say yes or no. These are internal arts there is a reason fro the flow that you call ballet. Most Japanese styles are very hard and are not ballet like at all (and certainly would not be entertaining).

People do take MA for various reasons and not everyone that takes MT goes in to a ring or desires to. Alot go for the health benefit. It sounds like somone really ticked you off, but you should attack the rest of the martial arts on teh planet because of it. MT is a good art, but it has holes in and out of competition just like any other art.

Anyway we can always agree to disagree

[jules]

MTF,
He is talking about the Wai Cru(sp).

[chris davis 200]

put TKD and Karate in that group because they really do fit in that group,like I said when I say traditional I am just talking about arts that do useless katas,but we're not here to talk about whether katas are useless or not.

Firstly why do you use that to difine Traditional MA's??

Pre fight of dance of MT,what dancing movements are you talking about? Every move in MT is useful.Ever been kicked by a MuayThai round house kick or been elbowed in temple or chin,or recieved a MT knee kick to head or chest?Probably not or you wouldn't speak crap like that.We also do stand up wrestling.

The pre fight dance is done in Thai land (maybe you dont!) it is a dance that is unique to each school. I call it a dance but it is more of a salutation.

I trained in MT for 3 years and was kicked and elbowed many times. SO yes i have been in the situation you talk about. Also the stand up clinching of MT i would hardley call grappling! It has no throwing, no real joint locking, etc etc.

Whatever bud,you obviously know nothing about MuayThai,because self-defense is exactly what MuayThai teaches.

MT is a ring sport! It teaches you to use the weapons available to you withing the rules inside the RING. Hence several doorman that i work with that are MT instructors have broken their fists and been stabbed.

Do you do multiple attacker practice, knife defences, awareness training, submissive conversational methods????? NO. not it traditional MT.

We don't learn to grab to the balls or hair pulling because we are not their to go to that extent on anyone just like in any other style.

Hmmmm - Grabbing someones balls or elbowing them to the temple?? Which is more likely to KILL! you have some strange views!

Actually katas are pre-arranged movements (shows you know very little about katas) and the the hidden techniques in each kata are supposed to represent some self-defense as well as create strong muscles,strength in joints and take impact as you said.

These are not hidden techniques - they are just techniques - they are not really ment to provide self defence solutions - they are there because it is a fighting art - What else would you practice in solo forms! you say that Kata are useful for concentration etc - so - thererfor they are not useless as you also say!

I don't need you to tell me what katas are I took Goju Ryu karate for 12yrs.

And i took Wado Ryu Karate for 5. I am not telling you anything - i am stating that your view on kata as useless is wrong - now by your own admission.

What kind of impact exactly? Snapping kicks and punches instead of going right through with them,I don't consider it really impact although a person can still sort of get hurt,try getting kicked by a MT fighter it will hurt more because we don't snap our kicks or punches we go straight through with them,that is what I call impact.

Go to a kyokushin school and ask one of them to punch or kick you - dont think you will have the same impression then. oh - and you wont be allowed gloves or a ring. Not saying its better than MT - just saying that other things have equally good power generation.

Why work on strengthing stances that are useless?

You missunderstand the intention of those stance training - you would not get into a deep horse stance when fighting would you - that is just stupid - but by training in deep stances all stance ranges above that will be effectively - comfortable - so someone that trains in deep stances will be able to hold a high stance better than someone that doesnt. Again - just a training method.

If you practice neither karate or TKD why would I need your corrections when I have done karate,and why bother defending it?

I was defending TMA's as this is what you wrongly titled the thread - it should have been 'TKD & Karate ....'.

You made a gross generalisation on TMA's from your obviously limited knowledge of them. There are more TMA's than Karate and TKD (these arent even Traditional IMO)!

I do not mean to offend you, or MT. MT is a fantastic TMA, it is very powerful strong and effective, from a striking point of view.

But to slur the ENTIRE TMA's community is ment to offend - hence my tone and my responce.

Cheers
Chris

[chris davis 200]

oh and good post IPON

[cross]

In karate, we have these 2 things called bunkai(application of kata) and kata oyo (close quarter combat).

Both of which take techniques from kata and all the techniques in kata have a self-defence application. Weather you agree with that or not.

You say you did karate for 12 years. Its obvious you made your decision about arts that contain kata. But what took you so long?

You say kata are useless. Do you do combinations in muay thai? And do you train them over and over on a heavy bag? and do you do work with a partner where you do set techniques then he/she does them? All of these things are the same has kata. But TMA's do them differently. They go through the full range of movement so its easier to do smaller parts of the movement.

All i can surgest is that you didn't go to a very good karate school so you want to try and get even for wasteing 12 years of your life.

You seem like you are dedicated to muay thai, so just do that. No one is making you do kata, and no one comes on here and says how bad muay thai is. I dont think there was really any need to create this topic.

[retired]

chris davis 200
"Also the stand up clinching of MT i would hardley call grappling! It has no throwing"

Strange that as they teach throwing in muaythai, or at least last time i was in the gym (or was i dreaming), & when training im always told to grapple with my opponent to get the best neck position where i can control him from.

Here's someone having their shoulder busted after grappling/wrestling & losing out:

[chris davis 200]

Retired.

A good post. I must admit that although having studied MT i never found the stand up clinching very advanced in terms of throwing or grappling. I have a JuJutsu background now so i guess that hsa tainted my view of previous stuff.

But maybe i was a bit heisty with that comment.

appologies.

[jules]

"JuJutsu"?

I must admit that although having studied MT i never found the stand up clinching very advanced in terms of throwing or grappling.

if you have studied MT you would know that the whole point of clinching is to throw elbows and knees.....

[BeCubic06]

It is very easy to stereotype practitioners of othe rmartial arts, don't. Oh, and that whole self defense thing, sure Muay thai is tougher than most others, but persoanlly, anything that has rules is not a fight, I dont care who you are. Does MT sparring teach you how to hit the groin? Gouge eyes? Choke? Hit throats? No it doesnt. But just as any other martial art, each one is missing a piece of the whole self defense puzzle. MT sparring is SPORT, Boxing sparring is SPORT, WTF TKD sparring is SPORT. I say sparring becuase each of these disciplines each has a unique approach to self defense seperate from there sparring practices. If you automatically cast a martial art off self defense wise, then you are disregarding valuable tools that you may not learn anywhere else.

And as always, let look at the term "martial art" (in my view). We have the word "martial" and the word "art". "Martial" pertains to war, self defense, etc. "art" pertains to the spirituality, personal fulfillment, beauty. Some stress one part more than the other, but nonetheless, martial art doesnt just contain the "martial" aspect nor the "art" aspect. They are one in this case and most people make the mistake of automatically thinking "martial art" is totally self defense. Learn as much as you can from other arts, learn what works for you, and cast off what you are sure doesnt work for you. Me, I love the brutal side of martial arts, so I try to stress more on the "martial" aspect than art, but its not the same for all and I will never cast away some of the more artsy thign s I have learned becuase I gain personal fulfillment from them sometimes, and are just plain fun to do. So, whatever your spiel is, do what you think is more fulfilling.