Is it ok to kick with the instep?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by Apoth
Thanks for some clarification, Toudiyama. Just out of curiousity, do you we agree with the other guy that snap kicks have more power when done properly?

I see snap kicks as one of those that can be effective if you get your speed up, but may not be as effective for beginners where as a MT kick (when the basics are learned) is effective pretty much from the get-go. Any thoughts?

A snapkick is harder, when foreward as well a returnspeed is highest

Also the effect of a snapkick is different to that of a Thaistylekick, snapkicks break, thai style knock off
E.g. when kicked with a thaistylekick to the head, it will knock you off your socks, a snapkick will break the jaw but oponent keeps standing
My 3 most skinniest student broke the jaw and palate of much heavier opponents ( who were used to more contact) all during on small tournament
And we do Wadokarate, one of the least agressive karatestyles
So for me that showed the power of snapkick perfectly
(the students didn't feel ok injuring someone else)

Don't forget a snapkick can travel faster than the thaistyle kick in particular the high kicks
As far as low kicks goes, snapkicks are useless there, nothing to break in the big muscles of the leg
Maybe a frontfoot snap lowkick to the inside, this can be made with a high speed and do some damage
a frontfoot kick thaistyle just doesn't have the room to generate the power one expects from a thai kick

[sslinky]

In my experience, a snap kick is nowhere near as powerful as a thai kick that drives through the target. It's quite easy to demonstrate this on the heavy bag whereby you can see which kick moves the bag the most. It's similar to the difference between a jab and a cross - the jab snaps back, and the cross goes right through the target. However, one is obviously faster than the other too.
Regarding the instep, once my shins toughened up a bit I found that my shins were the only surface that could really take the power of the kick - the instep and foot are prone to damage either by bending the foot backwards, or by damaging the small bones/ligamnets in the foot/instep.
I also find that I can produce a significant amount more power by kicking with the top of the shin - 3-4 inches below the knee than at the bottom, but the range is less of course.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by sslinky
In my experience, a snap kick is nowhere near as powerful as a thai kick that drives through the target. It's quite easy to demonstrate this on the heavy bag whereby you can see which kick moves the bag the most. It's similar to the difference between a jab and a cross - the jab snaps back, and the cross goes right through the target. However, one is obviously faster than the other too.
Regarding the instep, once my shins toughened up a bit I found that my shins were the only surface that could really take the power of the kick - the instep and foot are prone to damage either by bending the foot backwards, or by damaging the small bones/ligamnets in the foot/instep.
I also find that I can produce a significant amount more power by kicking with the top of the shin - 3-4 inches below the knee than at the bottom, but the range is less of course.

Sorry but the bag moving doesn't mean more power is generated, just that different power is generated
Snap generates penetrating power, what happens is instead of moving the back you would dent in all power is tranfered into a small surface
It's hard to explain , it is the same as people throwing the arm of the kicking side backward during a roundhousekick, they think it is more powerfull because they feel more power but this is because the kick travels one way and the arm the other, not because the kick itself is more powerfull
Power or energy isn't as easely understood as one might think

[dfissionr]

Uchiha_Anbu - I'd agree with you on that a snap roundhouse with shin would be more or at least just as powerful with the instep. I mean as long as you can snap it as fast, I'm going to watch out for you.

I love all kicks, it's hard for me to think any kick is useless if not done properly. So I practice Muay Thai, Tae Kwon Do, and Gung Fu roundhouses. sslinky was pointing out about snap kicks and the heavy bag; I have to agree with Toudiyama[NL]. Whenever I perfrom snaps with my instep I hear a loud crack whereas the muay thai I hear the thud and the bag buckles in. I love that cracking noise, because you know that is hurting inside. Now I tried the snapping with the shin, wow, that was like a kicker's wet dream come true. I got the mixture of a crack thud and the bag buckled and moved some but not as far as the push. Right now I think I'm going to use instep snap roundhouse for distance punishment, the muay thai kick for pushing opponents away/ finishing combos, and the shin snap roundhouse for medium distance/combos.

[Damian Mavis]

Toudiyama, if the Thai kick is not snapping from the hip to get the same concussive type power from the TKD type knee chambered kick then they are doing the Thai kick wrong. It should never push, it should always rock your target with penetrating concussive power. I'm thinking you've never experienced a really good Thai kick, there's no push... you just get a headache holding the pads for someone like that from the hard snapping impact going right through your body. You should know what I mean when I say I can cave the heavy bag in on one side without the bag moving using the Thai kick, there's no pushing involved. You mentioned how the snap kick breaks your jaw but the Thai kick doesn't. That is simply not true. The Thai kick to the head KILLS people, people die in the ring from this, it does not simply knock them back or down with no damage... bones are broken, sometimes really important ones heh. It's got just as much concussive power as the knee chambered kick BUT it uses a much deadlier attacking tool (the shin). You catch the shin on the neck from a powerful Thai kick and it's over.

Sslinky, like Toudiyama kind of explained, moving the bag is not a demonstration of power. I can walk up to you and push you with my 2 hands and knock you off your feet... but will you have felt any pain or damage? No. When kicking the bag you should always try to keep the bag as still as possible, I'm serious. If you give your hardest kick and the bag stays relatively still it means you just penetrated the bag and it should have caved or curved right in on one side, that is power. When the bag moves it's because there is too much push in your power and not enough penetration. In the ring the kicks that take your opponent out are the ones that penetrate his body with concussive power, if all you do is push him back or to the side he will just keep on coming. If your hitting the bag and your kick is just THAT good, then yes it will cave in AND move but not swing. The movement would be straight to the side (not the bottom of the bag swinging out first) with the chains at the top snapping tight and then the bag wobbling insanely out of control... but no simple swinging.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[sslinky]

Originally posted by Toudiyama[NL]



Sorry but the bag moving doesn't mean more power is generated, just that different power is generated
Snap generates penetrating power, what happens is instead of moving the back you would dent in all power is tranfered into a small surface
It's hard to explain , it is the same as people throwing the arm of the kicking side backward during a roundhousekick, they think it is more powerfull because they feel more power but this is because the kick travels one way and the arm the other, not because the kick itself is more powerfull
Power or energy isn't as easely understood as one might think

Interesting. I didn't realise there was more than one type of power!

power = force * distance / time (incidentally, and there is only one type )

The reason that throwing the arm back works, is because by using upper body muscle to push the arm in the opposite direction of the kick, an equal and opposite force is exerted on the rest of the body by the arm, and in the direction of the kick, hence more "force" in the kick (basic physics).
If you don't believe me, then try sitting on a swivel chair, lift up your feet and then swing your arm back. You will find that your body and the chair spin in the opposite direction of your arm (and in the direction of the kick if you were to do one).

Also: force = mass * acceleration (only one type )

The physics behind kicks is pretty complicated, but really boils down to the snap kick being faster, but by it's nature has less body "weight" behind it, which is what allows the kicker to snap the leg back. If you throw all your weight behind it, thai-style, you have to go right round if you miss - you can't snap back.
This essentially means that the force of a snap kick benefits from increased speed and therefore increased acceleration (or deceleration in this case), and the thai kick benefits from increased body mass behind the kick, the "mass".

The thai kick also does more "work" (in the physics sense, work = force * distance) because it continues through the target, whereas the snap kick is quickly brought back resulting in a low work value. This is why the bag moves more.

To calculate the power you need to take the "work" and divide by time that the striking surface was in contact with the bag. Unfortunately I've never done that, and never intend to!

As for the force distribution over the surface, this is clearly dependent on the striking surface and not the amount of "snap". This is another advantage of using the shin because it is quite sharp, whereas the instep is relatively flat.

[sslinky]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Sslinky, like Toudiyama kind of explained, moving the bag is not a demonstration of power. I can walk up to you and push you with my 2 hands and knock you off your feet... but will you have felt any pain or damage? No. When kicking the bag you should always try to keep the bag as still as possible, I'm serious. If you give your hardest kick and the bag stays relatively still it means you just penetrated the bag and it should have caved or curved right in on one side, that is power. When the bag moves it's because there is too much push in your power and not enough penetration. In the ring the kicks that take your opponent out are the ones that penetrate his body with concussive power, if all you do is push him back or to the side he will just keep on coming. If your hitting the bag and your kick is just THAT good, then yes it will cave in AND move but not swing. The movement would be straight to the side (not the bottom of the bag swinging out first) with the chains at the top snapping tight and then the bag wobbling insanely out of control... but no simple swinging.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I don't quite agree with all that but I do agree that the amount of bag motion is not a clear indication of power. (However, I'm not just pushing the bag around!)

Have you seen an old K-1 match where Jerome Le Banner kicks Mike Bernado with a low kick finishing the fight? The slo-mo shows the kick driving through the thigh with no snap at all, and almost removing Bernado's leg from his body. Bernado is unable to stand up or even move and the fight is over.

That kick would have moved the heavy bag, and is clearly effective.

[Damian Mavis]

Why do you say that kick had no snap? Remember I'm not talking about snap from the knee, it's all in the hip baby. If he caused that kind of damage he most definately snapped his hip into his kick. Following though is also what you do like you said, but the amount of time you follow through is very very small, you should be retracting your hip as fast as possible for more concussive power but also to keep your opponent from grabbing your leg.

You probably have a great kick and don't realise that MANY people take the idea of follow through too literally and push their kicks in instead of causing maximum damage. Hell I used to push my kick for almost 2 years... I was so happy when I finally was able to do what my Kru's were trying to tell me about snapping my hip into the kick. It opened up a whole new world to me.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by sslinky


I don't quite agree with all that but I do agree that the amount of bag motion is not a clear indication of power. (However, I'm not just pushing the bag around!)

Have you seen an old K-1 match where Jerome Le Banner kicks Mike Bernado with a low kick finishing the fight? The slo-mo shows the kick driving through the thigh with no snap at all, and almost removing Bernado's leg from his body. Bernado is unable to stand up or even move and the fight is over.

That kick would have moved the heavy bag, and is clearly
effective.

Hehe thats exactly how I would do it, if you pull your hip a bit extra at the moment of contact, it is devistating

one remark work = force x distance but isn't that the distance to the rotatingpoint?

If so it makes calculating the snapkick more compllicated, since there are 2 rotationpoint and 2 distances
In dutch we don't speak about the distance but the arm
so work=force X arm

[Uchiha_Anbu]

Damian, am I wrong in assuming that it is improper to use the instep with the hip amplifyed roundhouse. It seems to me that the concussive force being transfered in the kick would damage the small bones/ligamnets in the foot/instep. Also, you are using this devestating effect of retracting the kick after contact with TKD style round house, right? If so what do you think of the combination TKD roundhouse using the shin that I have been experimenting with for the past 2 days. What are your thoughts on it (anyone)?

[Damian Mavis]

Hiya, it's not improper.... I just find it unsafe from a fighters point of view (street or ring). Before I started Muay Thai a few years ago I was always hurting my ankle and instep. At the TKD school I trained at we sparred very hard and not always with protective feet coverings and I was either hitting elbows with my instep and then needing weeks to heal or I was hyper extending my ankle and basically spraining it over and over throughout the years.

Putting your energy into the target with your whole body behind it and then retracting your power as fast as possible for any technique I find gives it more concussive power. This is how I've been taught in all the martial arts I've trained in and works for just about everything I throw. I find it extra helpful in Muay Thai because my opponent is allowed to grab my attacking tool like my kick, so getting it in and out without giving him time to grab it is a bonus.

As for the combination.... for me I can only get maximum power from either kick by doing each in their style, BUT I sometimes do a cros of both kicks not to get maximum power but because it fit at the moment. I have found that for some reason I hurt the muscle beside my shin sometimes when doing a hybrid kick and hitting hard targets like bone... it's like I'm not hitting with the shin fully by chambering the knee of my shin kick. If you can do it successfully then use it.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[sslinky]

Originally posted by Toudiyama[NL]



Hehe thats exactly how I would do it, if you pull your hip a bit extra at the moment of contact, it is devistating

one remark work = force x distance but isn't that the distance to the rotatingpoint?

If so it makes calculating the snapkick more compllicated, since there are 2 rotationpoint and 2 distances
In dutch we don't speak about the distance but the arm
so work=force X arm

Yeah, it's pretty difficult to account for everything really, there's angular momentum /velocity around the standing leg, hip, knee etc etc - far too complicated!

Possibly it's better to measure the energy of the bag or whatever. If you could measure it's initial speed, you know it's weight, then you could calculate the kinetic energy transferred from your body to the bag with e = mv^2 / 2.

One thing I thought though, is that suppose you were a footballer ("soccer player"!) - that kicking action is actually very similar to a muay thai kick (even the arm swing), and power is gained from swinging through the kick - you never see a footballer "snapping" at the ball. Not exactly the same, I know, but similar.

[Damian Mavis]

The ball is kind of like a heavy bag right? I mean I can make the heavy bag swing really far with a good push kick but it took no damage. The aim of kicking the ball is to kick it as far as possible not break it's ribs...do balls have ribs?

I've got a good video that is very small, taken from a pro fight in Thailand... anybody know how to post it here?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Nick]

...

Too tired to read it all, but many times people throw the MT round kick like a whip, so it appears to "snap" but it doesn't. There may be some TKD masters who can get their snapping kicks as powerful as a MT round kick, but MT round kicks are clearly more effective. Otherwise, the snap kicks would be widely used and not the MT kicks.

Later...

[Damian Mavis]

I don't think it has anything to do with power as the reaon why Thai kick is used more at full contact levels. The shin is simply a better and safer attacking tool than the instep for bone on bone contact.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD