Which arts are closest to a real fight?

[Thai Bri]

Another great MuayThaiFighter thread........

[grubbogoppoly]

LOL. .I think you meant tequila though. One of the guys at my dojang broke his wifes nose cause he had too much tequila. She is a self defense instructor. So he asked her what would you do if someone tried this(As he headbutts her) ouch.

[Thai Bri]

Sounds like a beautiful relationship. I bet it was fun watching that........

From my experience most "self defence instructors" would try to defend the head butt by grabbing at a wrist and gently twisting it. They, too, would end up with a broken nose.

[osopardo]

All right, going out on a limb here... Not flaming or trying to start an arguement, but;

IMHO I don't think grappling has all that much to do with reality fighting. The usual sequence of a real fight goes something like this;

1. Verbal assault (threats, insults, etc.)
2. Someone throws a punch (very very rarely does someone throw a kick or shoot for a takedown).
3. Someone counters (usually a flinch-parry, a push, or a block-punch combo- nothing fancy).
4. A third party intervenes by either stopping the fighters or helping one of the fighters.

The only times I've seen grappling in a street fight was when a trained grappler was involved and it occurred to him to use his training. The results were usually not pretty. The grappler would usually become the recipient of a hailstorm of blows (kicks and punches).

Personally, I love grappling, but in a "real" fight, I don't see the point of going to the ground and committing your entire body, attention, mobility, arsenal, etc. against one opponent when there could be others lurking nearby. Besides, who wants to get that intimate with a stranger?

[IPON]

osopardo - I definately think some terms should be clarified groundfighting is a part (or aspect) of grappling and grappling are techiques within a certain range.

So your point of intentionally goping to the ground, generally speeaking, most will agree with. I always think it just depends on the situation. The fight can satr form verbal, mugging, or people just straight out attack you hell I have bumped into someone an had my jaw shift (I mean literally, " excuse me" ...Punch). for whatever reason, revenge, guy can't let go of his girl that left him and is now with you, whatever. There are some really sick people.

I read a post on Renzo Gracie's site. One of teh studnts said he got in a fight and mounted the guy as he saw the other guys friend run over, he choked him and said I was lucky the other guy was more concerned about his frien or he would have had his ass kicked. just depends

[darrianation]

Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
running.


When several guys start chasing you, you run.
When someone fires a gun you run.
When someone pulls a knife you run.

Most realistic situation.

I think windsprints should be an intiegral part of martial arts training.

[fighterboy10]

ignorance at its best(no offence)

All right, going out on a limb here... Not flaming or trying to start an arguement, but;

IMHO I don't think grappling has all that much to do with reality fighting. The usual sequence of a real fight goes something like this;

1. Verbal assault (threats, insults, etc.)
2. Someone throws a punch (very very rarely does someone throw a kick or shoot for a takedown).
3. Someone counters (usually a flinch-parry, a push, or a block-punch combo- nothing fancy).
4. A third party intervenes by either stopping the fighters or helping one of the fighters.

The only times I've seen grappling in a street fight was when a trained grappler was involved and it occurred to him to use his training. The results were usually not pretty. The grappler would usually become the recipient of a hailstorm of blows (kicks and punches).

Personally, I love grappling, but in a "real" fight, I don't see the point of going to the ground and committing your entire body, attention, mobility, arsenal, etc. against one opponent when there could be others lurking nearby. Besides, who wants to get that intimate with a stranger?




You can't possibly think any of that is true, have u been sheltered your whole life dude? lol. I think that #1 was right in your order of events, and nothing else. Most untrained or ignorant fighters go for the full blown shoot in and tackle. And most of the time people are not broken up, I mean we live in a real world where the cops/3rd party have better things to do, and besides groundfighting/grappling is the most effective type of fighting because of the few people who can naturally be able to use it effectively and not like a raging bear. And even if it isnt the most effective(which it is) most people resort to it because the average person or even an experienced street fighter noes that once your off balance the other person aint lettin you back up if he noes whats good for him. You may look at my pro and say damn 15 year old kid thinkin he can tell me what fightings about, but i have been in enough to know.(I used to keep track in a binder and before I threw the notebook out 4 months ago, I was up to 32 full blown non broken up 1v1 street fights. (many more brawls,getting jumped and broken up shyt.) But dont take my word for it go to a rough area of your town and start crap with some dude and find out your self lol.

[ryanhall]

But dont take my word for it go to a rough area of your town and start crap with some dude and find out your self lol.

And grapple him. And get stabbed by this rough dude who doesn't give a shit about your training. Or get your head kicked in by this guy's friends who are almost certainly there, seeing as it's his turf. Or find out that most 'fights' aren't fights, they are assaults committed by one party on the other. They often involve a weapon of some sort, mulitples, 3rd party particiaption, and not a lot of rolling around. Most fights end up on the ground (not high school shoving matches that go from shit flinging to clinching and then bad wrestling)--one guy gets knocked there or both go down with one on top. The one on top proceeds to beat the snot out of the guy on bottom. Naturally, I said 'most,' but the facts are the facts.

You may look at my pro and say damn 15 year old kid thinkin he can tell me what fightings about

That was exactly what I was thinking, actually. Good call.

Most untrained or ignorant fighters go for the full blown shoot in and tackle

In school, yes. I also observed this when I was in school. However, it doesn't go down like that very often unless there is a giant size disparity between the guy rushing and the guy being rushed--it won't work on somebody bigger. The haymaker is a common one. You'll see headbutts from people with a little more know-how. This is far from inclusive, but you're flat out wrong.

And even if it isnt the most effective(which it is)

Nothing is the 'most effective way of fighting.' That's childish...oops.

[osopardo]

Re: ignorance at its best(no offence)

Originally posted by fighterboy10
... groundfighting/grappling is the most effective type of fighting...

I simply cannot agree.

Granted, my sequence of events may have been a gross generalization, (for instance, I remember situations where the first blow was struck without provocation or warning, as well as situations where I kept hoping for someone to come and break up a fight that was going on too damn long) but I still maintain that the primal, instinctive response of people trying to hurt each other is to hit, not grab.

For me, the primary goal in a fight, and I mean a real fight, is to end it quickly and definitely (no threats about "...wait'll next time..."), and the most effective way to do that is to hit, and I mean hit hard, at some vulnerable target (nose, mouth, ribs, knees, etc.) NOT roll around trying to drop him, choke him, armbar him, throw him, whatever. That just takes too long!

BTW - I'm glad you got rid of that notebook. Keeping records of sporting competitions is normal, but keeping a records of your street fights could be considered a bit psychopathic.

[MuayThaiFighter]

Re: Re: ignorance at its best(no offence)

Originally posted by osopardo


I simply cannot agree.

Granted, my sequence of events may have been a gross generalization, (for instance, I remember situations where the first blow was struck without provocation or warning, as well as situations where I kept hoping for someone to come and break up a fight that was going on too damn long) but I still maintain that the primal, instinctive response of people trying to hurt each other is to hit, not grab.

For me, the primary goal in a fight, and I mean a real fight, is to end it quickly and definitely (no threats about "...wait'll next time..."), and the most effective way to do that is to hit, and I mean hit hard, at some vulnerable target (nose, mouth, ribs, knees, etc.) NOT roll around trying to drop him, choke him, armbar him, throw him, whatever. That just takes too long!

BTW - I'm glad you got rid of that notebook. Keeping records of sporting competitions is normal, but keeping a records of your street fights could be considered a bit psychopathic.

I agree with 1 st part of what you are saying but I do think grappling is just as important as stand up after all 9 out of 10 fights go to the ground to say otherwise is just plain ignorance.

If a person is a good fighter he can take you to the ground,choke you, throw you or even armbar you in very little time so I disagree with you there. I have seen grapplers take down stand up fighters within just a few seconds not giving the stand up fighter much time to punch or kick,however I have also seen it go the other way where the grappler wouldn't be quick enough to take a stand up fighter to the ground. It can go either way.

The best of course is if a person does both stand up and grappling and if you don't then you know you're in trouble for sure.

A good fighter on street can end a fight just as quickly grappling as could with stand up.

I know guys that could most likely take you to the ground after you do just one kick or punch and finish you with an armbar very quickly or even choke you out.

Never under estimate grappling whether in competition or in a real fight is all I can say.

Just to let you know you don't ever want to be thrown on concrete by a grappler because if it happens the fight will be over quicker then you expected and the only thing you'll most likely see when your head hits the pavement is stars and you will have one heck of a ride to the hospital so to say grappling takes too long in a real situation shows plain ignorance .

I don't know about anyone else here but personally if I was going to lose a fight I'd rather lose against a good stand up fighter then lose against an extremely good grappler. Of course I wouldn't want to lose period though and hopefully I wouldn't.

[S.Anucha]

Re: Re: Re: ignorance at its best(no offence)

Originally posted by MuayThaiFighter


I agree with 1 st part of what you are saying but I do think grappling is just as important as stand up after all 9 out of 10 fights go to the ground to say otherwise is just plain ignorance.

No offense but what shite are ye talking aboot????

9 out of 10 fights go to the ground? mate where on bloody earth did you learn that? a good fighter is gonna win a fight in seconds so long as he isnt gonna be fighting some guy who already has the ability to fight well! Street figths are bull-fucking-shit! Ask any local thug what does he prefer to do.... "erm, hello there M.r Thug, may i ask how would you like a fight to go? would you (a)like it to go to the ground or (b)prefer to fight standing?" he is either gonna whip out some weapon and stick it over your head or whistle to his mate then give you a beaten or he may well say "mate I will do anything to kill the fucker" MuayThaifighter have you ever came across such people.... you know the type, football hooligan? what would you do if one of them attacked you? No thug ever wants a fight to go to the ground and probably most thugs have had more figths than enough, you know these guys learn the tricks of the trade when it comes to street fighting so I think I'd listen more to a converted football hooligan than some self promoted UFC champion telling us all how it is to fight on the street, pfft! they know how to fight in the octogon....

...to all UFC champs who spin this street bull I say come to my fucking city and spin yer shit, I think most of the local dickwabs would be happy to give you a good seeing to and maybe let you test your skills out on them!


This UFC crap has totally brainwashed people and the guys who are doing the "I am the street warrior" promotionary stunt need a good lesson!!!!

[jubaji]

Re: Re: Re: Re: ignorance at its best(no offence)

Originally posted by S.Anucha

.... you know the type, football hooligan? what would you do if one of them attacked you? No thug ever wants a fight to go to the ground and probably most thugs have had more figths than enough, you know these guys learn the tricks of the trade when it comes to street fighting so I think I'd listen more to a converted football hooligan than some self promoted UFC champion telling us all how it is to fight on the street, pfft! they know how to fight in the octogon....

...to all UFC champs who spin this street bull I say come to my fucking city and spin yer shit, I think most of the local dickwabs would be happy to give you a good seeing to and maybe let you test your skills out on them!

It sure sounds like you've gotten your ass kicked a lot! Don't be bitter, lil' fella.

[osopardo]

Re: Re: Re: ignorance at its best(no offence)

Originally posted by MuayThaiFighter


...9 out of 10 fights go to the ground to say otherwise is just plain ignorance.

If a person is a good fighter he can take you to the ground,choke you, throw you or even armbar you in very little time so I disagree with you there.

...even choke you out...

...so to say grappling takes too long in a real situation shows plain ignorance .

9 out of 10 fights? Where'd you get that kind of stat? Oh wait, yeah! I get it! The fight goes to the ground when the striker ko's the grappler and he falls to the ground unconcious.

As for time duration, get yourself a stopwatch and time how long it takes to choke out a compliant volunteer who will allow you to slap on the choke hold without a struggle and compare that to how long it takes to hit a resistant opponent, one who is also trying to hit you and has therefore moved into range. Even accounting for those last factors, one solid strike to any of several target areas will end the fight immediately.

[S.Anucha]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ignorance at its best(no offence)

Originally posted by jubaji


It sure sounds like you've gotten your ass kicked a lot! Don't be bitter, lil' fella.

duder I aint little! lol, I am 178cm tall and weigh 69kg for fighting.

I have had 3 fights, Muay Thai 1st fight being with some crazy fucker who had more fights than me and was stronger.... outcome was a draw, my second two fights were in Thailand both KO's me being the winner, :-)

as for soutside on the streets of my dearly beloved city I have had many fights from high school to around 5 years ago.... some, I mean very few, I was beaten but the majority I won! I have had my ass kicked by groups of people and I aint bitter in anyway it just astounds me that so many posters to so many martial art foprums actually post the biggest lot of crap! they clearly have no idea how it is to actua;lly fight someone who is, as osopardo quite nicely put it, a resistant opponent! punch bags folks dont hit back, sparring partners aint trying to kill ya....

....it just annoys me when I ead such crap.


I know I know I should juts ignore it and not post... but I am posting so there, hehe.


jubaji

these football hooligans dont really phase me out, I use football hooligan as a descriptive term for a "mad bastard" but I can tell you that if the majority of posters on all the internet MA forums who are so fantastically skilled in their arts were to come across these kinds of thuigs, the ones who are "mad bastards" they would shit.

there was a funny mpeg flying around with a martial arts class, a guy entred dressed casually ready to demonstarte a street attack! lol, it was exactly how it is, he pulled out a chain whipped the **** out of most of these kung fu dudes while spitting like a deranged animal! "mad bastards" mate they are the ones to watch

[jubaji]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ignorance at its best(no offence)

Originally posted by S.Anucha


so many posters to so many martial art foprums actually post the biggest lot of crap! they clearly have no idea how it is to actua;lly fight someone who is, as osopardo quite nicely put it, a resistant opponent! punch bags folks dont hit back, sparring partners aint trying to kill ya....

....it just annoys me when I ead such crap.


I know I know I should juts ignore it and not post... but I am posting so there, hehe.

watch

I'm sad to say that your response is perfectly reasonable. I was really hoping for a childish, angry response to distract me from a boring day at work. But I have to say that what you wrote makes a lot of sense. dammit.