Kata vs. Shadow Boxing

[sherwinc]

ahhhh its sherwinc. i missed you so much. ever since i took a break from these forum chats nothing has been the same without your mindless misguided crap. all those days of us debating and me getting the better of you... remember how you used to not answer my questions... and if you did it would end up being some kind of vague bs? yeah.... those were the good ol' days weren't they? it looks like you and that tkd guy were doin some point sparring since u guys were keeping score. cuz 4:0 is well.... a low hit rate in a sparring match for it to be REAL sparring. sure sure it was "full contact". maybe u deserve some kinda credit there.... NOT. and you really didnt answer his question. tournament sparring isnt real fighting. plus the only tournaments you go to are probably gonna be full of forms and point sparring. do yourself a favour before a person who really knows how to fight kicks your ass. do some full contact non stop (which means after every hit you dont jump back 5 feet into your stance and circle eachother). so... have you actually ever been in a REAL conflict?

since tornament sparring is not like those of ringfights.......

how about if you get a truck tire and put it on the ground..... then you spar versus a kungfu, and if either of you falls or step his feet to the ground will automatically loose......

its a sparring on top of the tire

[Karate_is_cool]

thank you very much for proving one of my points. ladies and gentlemen i present to you sherwinc's rebuttle:

since tornament sparring is not like those of ringfights.......

how about if you get a truck tire and put it on the ground..... then you spar versus a kungfu, and if either of you falls or step his feet to the ground will automatically loose......

its a sparring on top of the tire

........ more vague bullshit. sorry for wasting your time folks. lets try to get some real conversation started people

[sherwinc]

thank you very much for proving one of my points. ladies and gentlemen i present to you sherwinc's rebuttle:




........ more vague bullshit. sorry for wasting your time folks. lets try to get some real conversation started people

you just cant accept the truth......

meaning.....

in the street.... there are many abstacles that you are not your art is not fitted, sparring on top of the tire is a space very very limited cause the more you step back is the more you put yourself in great jeopardy...... compare to ring ropes..... the more you step back - your back hits the corner rope but it doesnt matter.......

you know...... theres no resemblance of ring corner ropes in the street, limited sparring space like sparring on top of the table is the true test to test your skills......

Note:

Remember, a Good Fighter can fight his opponent what ever types of fighting places the fights starts..... be it inside the ring, on top of the table, on top of the slippery taxi car, on top of the long bench chair, etc......

CONVINCED????????????

[Karate_is_cool]

you just cant accept the truth......

meaning.....

in the street.... there are many abstacles that you are not your art is not fitted, sparring on top of the tire is a space very very limited cause the more you step back is the more you put yourself in great jeopardy...... compare to ring ropes..... the more you step back - your back hits the corner rope but it doesnt matter.......

you know...... theres no resemblance of ring corner ropes in the street, limited sparring space like sparring on top of the table is the true test to test your skills......

Note:

Remember, a Good Fighter can fight his opponent what ever types of fighting places the fights starts..... be it inside the ring, on top of the table, on top of the slippery taxi car, on top of the long bench chair, etc......

CONVINCED????????????

Lol like you spar on top of tires and tables. bs sherwinc. you dont do that shit, so dont go around telling people to do this and that because you think that you're so knowledgable.

[/QUOTE]...the more you step back is the more you put yourself in great jeopardy...... compare to ring ropes..... the more you step back - your back hits the corner rope but it doesnt matter....... [/QUOTE]

hmm nothing happens when you get backed up against the ropes? yeah right. the ropes simulate a wall. what happens when you get backed up against a wall? you get pummeled if you dont know how to circle. sometimes people can fall through the ropes too. looks like you havent seen many fights. having your back against the ropes is NOT a good thing. sure people dont fight in an evenly squared room all the time. but dont go thinking that there is nothing that resembles ropes on the street. a building wall, or a big sign, or even the side of a big van. no shit it's important to realise that a real fight is full of obstacles. a lot of experienced martial artists know that. let me ask you something. how often do people fight on top of a table?? or fight on top of tire stacks? never you idiot. a better example would be in a living room, or in an alley. not fighting in places you only see in movies.

here you list off examples of all the places a good fighter should be able to fight on:

[/QUOTE]..... be it inside the ring, on top of the table, on top of the slippery taxi car, on top of the long bench chair, etc......[/QUOTE]

k well we went over the table thing but.... on top of a slippery taxi cab? right...... "hey buddy, you want a piece of me!?" other guy: "yeah, i'll take you on top of this cab!!"

man, if i ever fought on top of a tire and i stepped off, i wouldnt lose, i'd just kick the other guy's ass while i was standing on the ground.

so with all these great examples of practicing your ability to adapt and reality sparring. do you ever do that? please, answer truthfully oh wise master sherwinc.

lol if he did, it would probably be point fighting.

[sherwinc]

Lol like you spar on top of tires and tables. bs sherwinc. you dont do that shit, so dont go around telling people to do this and that because you think that you're so knowledgable.

hmm nothing happens when you get backed up against the ropes? yeah right. the ropes simulate a wall. what happens when you get backed up against a wall? you get pummeled if you dont know how to circle. sometimes people can fall through the ropes too. looks like you havent seen many fights. having your back against the ropes is NOT a good thing. sure people dont fight in an evenly squared room all the time. but dont go thinking that there is nothing that resembles ropes on the street. a building wall, or a big sign, or even the side of a big van. no shit it's important to realise that a real fight is full of obstacles. a lot of experienced martial artists know that. let me ask you something. how often do people fight on top of a table?? or fight on top of tire stacks? never you idiot. a better example would be in a living room, or in an alley. not fighting in places you only see in movies.

here you list off examples of all the places a good fighter should be able to fight on:

k well we went over the table thing but.... on top of a slippery taxi cab? right...... "hey buddy, you want a piece of me!?" other guy: "yeah, i'll take you on top of this cab!!"

man, if i ever fought on top of a tire and i stepped off, i wouldnt lose, i'd just kick the other guy's ass while i was standing on the ground.

so with all these great examples of practicing your ability to adapt and reality sparring. do you ever do that? please, answer truthfully oh wise master sherwinc.

lol if he did, it would probably be point fighting.

perhaps your country place there are very very clean on the street, no obstacles and a very wide open grass land, beautiful to see and imagine living there, the reason why 99% of the Filipinos want to imigrant there in your place......

but how about this Philippines?????? here in our places is full of obstacles, one step backward on the street a jeepney or taxi or bus would hit your back, one step forward you'll bump a crowd, one step at your side your be fall to a dirty canal roadside...... and full of dirty sharp garbages here on the ground and GRAPPLING IS NOT GOOD......

limited spaces here, full of stick you could see down you feet, and full of stone that you can use as a weapon....... then a ring arena is not a good example here in our place instead - it is like fighting on top of the table..... he who falls is like a car bumps your body.......

hope you get what i mean.......

[Karate_is_cool]

perhaps your country place there are very very clean on the street, no obstacles and a very wide open grass land, beautiful to see and imagine living there, the reason why 99% of the Filipinos want to imigrant there in your place......

but how about this Philippines?????? here in our places is full of obstacles, one step backward on the street a jeepney or taxi or bus would hit your back, one step forward you'll bump a crowd, one step at your side your be fall to a dirty canal roadside...... and full of dirty sharp garbages here on the ground and GRAPPLING IS NOT GOOD......

limited spaces here, full of stick you could see down you feet, and full of stone that you can use as a weapon....... then a ring arena is not a good example here in our place instead - it is like fighting on top of the table..... he who falls is like a car bumps your body.......

hope you get what i mean.......

hey buddy, i know what you're talkin about, im from vietnam. i know the crowded cities and i've been to the REALLY crowded big cities. i never said that obstacles arent part of street fighting. never said that at all. plus when u fight around people, people MOVE. im not talking about your theories im givin you crap cuz you talk like you practise your theories ALL THE FRICKIN TIME. look, i practise what i preach and preach what i practise. if im sharing an idea or theory, i dont try to sound like im the master of it when i type it out.

so, try and do just that. get rid of that "i know everything" attitude.

hope you get what I mean.....

ps. canada is nice, but it's not wide open grass (and the streets arent THAT clean depending on where u are).

[Karate_is_cool]

oh and i just realized we arent even discussing shadowboxing vs. kata. lol maybe we need our own thread to argue in.

by the way, shadowboxing is the winner for self defence. kata only serves as maybe 3% self defence and that is learning or practicing technique (in which maybe one move per kata is practical). trust me im still doing karate while i do muay thai and i know that kata is useless for defense

[Boxiados]

Respiratory (LOL)

since tornament sparring is not like those of ringfights.......

how about if you get a truck tire and put it on the ground..... then you spar versus a kungfu, and if either of you falls or step his feet to the ground will automatically loose......

its a sparring on top of the tire

WOW... Sherwinc, thank you so much... for this tip!

I was going to have a fight in a bar with a guy who seemed very tough, I was so scared he would win so I asked him to wait for me I was just going to run grab a TYRE somewhere and that we fight on top of it...
I don't know why the guy started laughing so loud that he suddenly choked and died of respiratory failure! I then realized that Kung Fu might be too extremely effective! I decided to stick to Muay Thai since KF is too brutal!!!
Furthermore, this explain why I see so many Kung Fu fighters carrying a tyre where ever they go, the problem is that they have to leave the tyres outside when they go to bars and clubs, then the problem that rised is, when people see too many Tyres outside a bar or a club they don't even go inside since they don't want to have to fight against skilled KF fighters who invite them to fight on top a their tyres. So while bar and clubs owners were complaining for loss of business, drivers found it usful that in case they have two flat tyres at ones they could look for bars where there are tyres left outside, this pushed Tyre manifacturers to promote Kung Fu financing new Kung Fu Clubs and doing all their advertising with kung Fu Fighters kicking tyres and fighting on top of them to show how resistant and durable their tyres are! HA HA HA HA HA HA....
Good Luck Master and stop watching too many movies

[sherwinc]

oh and i just realized we arent even discussing shadowboxing vs. kata. lol maybe we need our own thread to argue in.

by the way, shadowboxing is the winner for self defence. kata only serves as maybe 3% self defence and that is learning or practicing technique (in which maybe one move per kata is practical). trust me im still doing karate while i do muay thai and i know that kata is useless for defense

maybe you are right, why??????

cause when i practice with my wooden dummy, i do dummy like a shadow boxing...... i just pretending that my dummy attack me with this, then i intercept it on its left wooden arm, it is truely an art where your mind works......

i do more on shadow boxing instead of kata....... since i dont know how to kata the wooden dummy but its all imagination/work of mind in hitting the wooden dummy........

the most important thing that i always put in my mind is....... i dont care if someday i wont memorize all my set pattern(kata) but the most important for me is to perfect all the alphabets of that particular KungFu Art.....

since most of the elements found in KungFu Kuns and Chiens (kata) are all found on its KungFu Alphabets of Techniques.......

then, maybe we can say that Kata, setpatterns is not important as long as you memorized and mastered all your fighting alphabets.....

Note:
it is like that you forgot the meaning of this WORD, but dont forget your 26 ENGLISH ALPHABETS.......

[Boxiados]

maybe you are right, why??????

cause when i practice with my wooden dummy, i do dummy like a shadow boxing...... i just pretending that my dummy attack me with this, then i intercept it on its left wooden arm, it is truely an art where your mind works......

i do more on shadow boxing instead of kata....... since i dont know how to kata the wooden dummy but its all imagination/work of mind in hitting the wooden dummy........

the most important thing that i always put in my mind is....... i dont care if someday i wont memorize all my set pattern(kata) but the most important for me is to perfect all the alphabets of that particular KungFu Art.....

since most of the elements found in KungFu Kuns and Chiens (kata) are all found on its KungFu Alphabets of Techniques.......

then, maybe we can say that Kata, setpatterns is not important as long as you memorized and mastered all your fighting alphabets.....

Note:
it is like that you forgot the meaning of this WORD, but dont forget your 26 ENGLISH ALPHABETS.......

You do the dummy??? and how does it feel to do a wooden dummy! do you lubrificate it first thoug? Have you ever tried to do a reel person, you should try, it's better than a hard wooden dummy!

Good luck master!

[Boxiados]

Fetich Sherwinc

You do the dummy??? and how does it feel to do a wooden dummy! do you lubrificate it first though? Have you ever tried to do a reel person, you should try, it's better than doing a hard cold wooden dummy! Or maybe you like FETICH! Well I guess so, since you always include strange accessoris in your training! Makes me wonder what's really going on!
Good luck master!

[sherwinc]

You do the dummy??? and how does it feel to do a wooden dummy! do you lubrificate it first though?

i really love to hit my forearm in dummies arms..... two days quitting practicing wooden dummy my forearms becomes itchy...... it really tempted me to do hitting combinations again to the dummies arms...

i notice that my forearm doesnt bruise, no traces of swoolen red on my forearm, cause whenever after practicing dummy - a dit dat jow is then applied.....

wooden dummy is truelly a pasttime leisure thing for me, one of my hobbies....

[MuayThaiFighter]

this is not intended to affend anyone else but I would like to know if sherwinc or what ever your user name is has ever actualy fought for real not in your head or in your katas because ive seen you preeching on a couple different things now about you one or two shot knockouts and what bs and by the way you are wrong in te worst way about shadow boxing there is nothing fixed about it.. I think maybe you have your own website to support your dumb ass ego

you are wrong in te worst way about shadow boxing there is nothing fixed about it.

So true.

[HtTKar]

This is my first post. Forgive me if I make mistakes. I'm just really interested in this debate.
Here's how I've always stated the difference between Kata and shadow boxing, as both are for refining technique.
Katas were developed to practice attacks and defense at a time when, in many places, MA were not allowed. They put you in the frame of mind of the person that developed those forms, to help you percieve situations from a different perspective. When you examine the moves in the katas, you learn things that might not be learned from simply shadow boxing.
Shadow boxing is only from a 1st person perspective. When you shadow box you are only fighting against yourself, but you use the best of everything that you have learned along the way. Shadow boxing also teaches you to loosen up, get confortable, and attack from odd angles.
I think that you need to do both to be successful. Katas for the different perspective, and shadow boxing to put it to use.

[MuayThaiFighter]

This is my first post. Forgive me if I make mistakes. I'm just really interested in this debate.
Here's how I've always stated the difference between Kata and shadow boxing, as both are for refining technique.
Katas were developed to practice attacks and defense at a time when, in many places, MA were not allowed. They put you in the frame of mind of the person that developed those forms, to help you percieve situations from a different perspective. When you examine the moves in the katas, you learn things that might not be learned from simply shadow boxing.
Shadow boxing is only from a 1st person perspective. When you shadow box you are only fighting against yourself, but you use the best of everything that you have learned along the way. Shadow boxing also teaches you to loosen up, get confortable, and attack from odd angles.
I think that you need to do both to be successful. Katas for the different perspective, and shadow boxing to put it to use.

Katas were developed to practice attacks and defense at a time when in many places MA were not allowed.

I agree.

They put you in the frame of mind of the person that developed those forms, to help you percieve situations from a different perspective. When you examine the moves in the katas, you learn things that might not be learned from simply shadow boxing.

Now this is where I disagree.Katas may have been created to percieve situations from one perspective but does that help in a real situation? Of course not because it is important to percieve situations from several perspectives not just one way,so this makes katas useless.

You do learn things in shadow boxing that you don't see in katas simply because the techniques in katas are pointless where as shadow boxing uses only realistic techniques and are not pre-arranged like in katas.

Shadow boxing is only from a 1st person perspective. When you shadow box you are only fighting against yourself, but you use the best of everything that you have learned along the way. Shadow boxing also teaches you to loosen up, get confortable, and attack from odd angles.

Oh and katas aren't from only a 1st person perspective!!!!!! In katas you are also only fighting against yourself as well.Well from what I remember of doing katas,the techniques within the katas are supposed to be hidden movements of self-defense and when doing katas you are going against an imaginary opponent.

What is so odd about the angles of attack used in shadow boxing? It makes more sense then going across the floor and stepping behind one leg to turn to the other side and to make sure you end a kata exactly from where you started it.

In a real fight you're not going to be making sure you finish your opponent off in the exact same spot in which you started fighting you're going to concentrate on winning.

I think that you need to do both to be successful. Katas for the different perspective, and shadow boxing to put it to use

I disagree again.

Doing both is great if you're just warming up and trying to keep in shape.Other then that kata techniques,except for maybe a few techniques are actually worth learning but even then can be done without.

You don't need to do both katas and shadow boxing to be successful.

You think any of the real pro fighters waist their time doing forms? If you do then you are living in another world.

Guys like Mohammad Ali, Hollyfield,Mike Tyson,Lewis didn't waist their time with katas,they became good fighters from hard serious training which involves both shadow boxing and actual fighting in the ring.

If you're going to talk about seeing martial arts training from different perspectives why not shadow boxing as one perspective and actual ring fighting as another ?

Shadow boxing and sparring full contact makes you a better fighter not katas.

Practicing katas just make you better at doing your katas.