Kata vs. Shadow Boxing

[MuayThaiFighter]

I live in a fairly safe area and at the karate school I go, my sensei tells us he just wants to preserve the 'art' of karate(goju-ryu.) Because this is the case our school does katas prob at least 50% of each class. This is fine because its mostly for preservation of the arts and for fun. Katas are fine for this reason, however people who tell themselves that doing gekusai dai ichi 50 times a night will make themslelves better fighters should wake up and smell the roses. And those people who say its good for getting good form, thats true but there are more efficient ways that dont mess up muscle memory(shadow boxing example.) So basically katas are fun and all but they do jack for making yourself a good fighter

I agree 100% and this is coming from a ni dan in Goju Ryu.I took this art for 12yrs.before switching to Pankration and had taught Goju for 5 yrs.I had quit just before going to test for my 3rd degree black belt.

[silapathai]

omg...

[QUOTE=TONGPO]1) But then its pre-arranged techs, I'm talkin about free sparrin, thinkin on the spot, pullin something out of the hat.
2)So you're calling me a wimp?? I can't deal with gettin hit? Whats your record? Im proud of mine, and 75% of the time spar with enough force to get the occasional broken rib, broekn foot, broken nose. I've had all these and dealt with em. BUt I still stand by my comment. I'll try and explain, I'm sparrin with someone better than me, I don't want to get hit. Thats not the same as being a wimp, as not dealing with it, its common sense. I hate being hit, it hurts. So I as everything I do ends up with him catching me I tend to close up, block and move. Throw a quick jab low kick, move again. Anythin else doesnt work cos he's got a great guard and can read me....now to get in I may need to use more 'fancy tech' or maybe techs I'm not as comfy throwing.


I don't know you but I'm calling you a wimp/idiot if you're "bragging" about getting injuries during sparring and making claims that 75% of the time you're sparring with force to cause these kind of injuries. Where do you train around Vancouver? KB one, gold lion??? I have respect for both of these gyms because of some of the fighters that have come out of both of them. Shawn Jansen from gold lion that I was supposed to fight back in '99 for instance..he's a great fighter. Mark Brackenburry...Mhedi from KB one is another good one and a good Kyokushinkai fighter. Do you fight under the CMTA and/or top rank(hammond's association)? Or do you train with Vince in Surrey..or maybe Pride gym and/or trail thai boxing which aren't in vancouver..so what gym do you train at? All of these gyms are good gyms and have had good fighters. I'm asking because I'm wondering where you spar 75% of the time with this kind of force.
The best competitive level thai boxers in the world don't spar 75% of the time with force to injure themselves or sparring partners like this. Vos gym for instance in Holland hardly does any sparring, it's a bunch of drills. Master Toddy's Gym is a bunch of drills, bag work, conditioning, and drills..and some sparring but controlled...Sparring is dessert at Toddy's. I've trained at a lot of gyms around seattle and the nw that spar more than they do drills and pad work with majority of those students and coincidentally those students don't have the refined skills of defense & countering as someone does that does more pad work and defense/countering drills with a good trainer. I'm talking one on one private/semi private training that anyone should get before fighting.
Use some common sense here..if you were to spar 75% of the time with this kind of force than you are sparring like a beginner. An experienced fighter/martial artist uses control when sparring and instead works on some sort of strategy like cutting corners, countering with a certain technique..setting up techniques..etc. I've seen more of these injuries that you mentioned when you spar with beginners than any experienced thai boxer, etc. Enough said...

[Shoot]

I can see how Katas might be relaxing to perform--kinda like tai-chi or something. But, the movements in Katas are more like metaphors for combat the same way a dance would be. For that reason Katas IMO don't provide the necessary mind/muscle connection to train the body to use realistic movments that you'd use in combat. Shadow boxing on the other hand puts you into a fight in your mind to which you use your actual techniques. You can recreate conditions you've faced before and then respond how you wish you would have to train the proper response or as you did respond if your response was appropriate. Shadow boxing is also valuable for checking your form using your actual techniques. I typically shadow box in front of a mirror and can see when I do something wrong like drop a hand while returning it from a punch etc...

[sanjiyan99]

Shadow boxing trains one to hone their techniques by themselves when no partner and no bag is available at the time. It also works out a good sweat, and teaches/reminds the practitioner of the structure in his style of boxing -- be it the sweet science or the science of eight limbs. Katas are just good for an all-around body exercise, depending on the form being performed. They're also good for show. Ram Muay, in my opinion, is just an MT practitioner's personal "kata".

[MuayThaiFighter]

I can see how Katas might be relaxing to perform--kinda like tai-chi or something. But, the movements in Katas are more like metaphors for combat the same way a dance would be. For that reason Katas IMO don't provide the necessary mind/muscle connection to train the body to use realistic movments that you'd use in combat. Shadow boxing on the other hand puts you into a fight in your mind to which you use your actual techniques. You can recreate conditions you've faced before and then respond how you wish you would have to train the proper response or as you did respond if your response was appropriate. Shadow boxing is also valuable for checking your form using your actual techniques. I typically shadow box in front of a mirror and can see when I do something wrong like drop a hand while returning it from a punch etc...

I would have to agree with this 100%

[MuayThaiFighter]

Shadow boxing trains one to hone their techniques by themselves when no partner and no bag is available at the time. It also works out a good sweat, and teaches/reminds the practitioner of the structure in his style of boxing -- be it the sweet science or the science of eight limbs. Katas are just good for an all-around body exercise, depending on the form being performed. They're also good for show. Ram Muay, in my opinion, is just an MT practitioner's personal "kata".

I totally agree that katas are just an all-around body exercise and good for show,because as far as I am concerned saying they're basics or foundations of techniques for sparring is simply a faulse misconception brain-washed into students by asian traditional martials instructors who teach the katas.

[Ironpalm]

only the trolls know

[Ironpalm]

Kata is very dangerous when applied in sparring cause kata is your blueprint in fighting. In KUNGFU kata is full of hidden secrets fighting moves which is unexplainable if you see and unbreakable code in other martial arts style to see the kata (setpatterns of kungfu).

Note: the kata of karate is not like same of kata of kungfu

Whoa! What planet are you from? Nobody dares speak like that on Earth: Kung Fu deadly? different from Karate? Wow. Theres hope for this planet after all. Most people dont understand because it doesn't exist in thier 14 hour a week max training time . Those who live it as a lifestyle can do things people who do it as a hobby can't concieve.

[Ironpalm]

katas not for fighting? is that how "karate" katas are? well then i am real thankful i am taking kung fu because all of ours are about fights. we do a technique on one person and then turn to do another tech. on another person, and so on until we are through.
the things used in katas can be broken down and used in real situations. we have nothing but applicable material in our katas.

Yes many (but not all) Karate forms as well as many wushu turn out nothing more than DOJO BALLERINAS .Thats the reason for the loss of respect for Traditional martial arts.

[Ironpalm]

Keep the best tool, throw away the toolbox.

Yeah throw the tool box away...WTF What if the job changes? Where do you find ideas of dealing with the new threat--your ass?

[Ironpalm]

Gee... looks like Im up late talking to myself...again. What I get for startin on page one and commenting throughout.

[jubaji]

superkungfuman!

Those who live it as a lifestyle can do things people who do it as a hobby can't concieve.

Hmmmmmm...like you, right?

[Hardball]

I like kata for relaxation and to develop my spirit; especially on vacation when no training equipment is available. Ever done kata alone on the beach; it' an awesome experience?

I like shadow combat (boxing) to practice or work on unpremeditated moves. I do both and I believe in both. That's my .02 worth.

[medic06]

Whoa! What planet are you from? Nobody dares speak like that on Earth: Kung Fu deadly? different from Karate? Wow. Theres hope for this planet after all. Most people dont understand because it doesn't exist in thier 14 hour a week max training time . Those who live it as a lifestyle can do things people who do it as a hobby can't concieve.

Must be nice, but unfortunately I have to work for a living. . .