Evaluating a potential threat

[Sagacious Lu]

What sorts of things tip you off that you might be about to have a confrontation? I'm talking about noticing that a drunk is starting to get beligerant, or that a person is babbling and twitching like a meth user, or that a homeless person is following you. What are the signs you look for that tell you that a situation might be dangerous? When do you decide you're threatened enough to attack first? Do you ever take the initiative? Under what circumstances would you deploy a weapon?

[BoarSpear]

Did you ask enough questions in one post dude? Damn man, slow down... the forum is new, we got time...

Good questions though, I will start trying to offer some input (after class) on the questions although they could have each had their own thread.

[blitz]

Personally I've seen lots of people pull out weapons from their back jeans pocket or the normal side ones. Noone really uses the leather strap or whatever boar calls them. I don't know, I remember several incident where cell phones were snatched in the street because some stranger asks for one and if the person says he dosen't have one they just stick their hand in their pocket take out a knife and threaten them.

Maybe that sounded stupid but you can see it from the way they are talking, acting and where their hands are at the time.

[Sagacious Lu]

Did you ask enough questions in one post dude? Damn man, slow down... the forum is new, we got time...

Good questions though, I will start trying to offer some input (after class) on the questions although they could have each had their own thread.

LOL... I guess this is a pretty open ended topic. I asked the questions the way I did because I'm thinking of the situation from start to finish. For me there is definately a window where I see a person as a threat but I don't think (for any number of reasons) that it's best for me to go on the offensive. At the same time if I feel threatened enough I will get aggresive if I think the situation calls for it. I've been thinking about this a lot lately because about two weeks ago a guy tried to take my wallet just a couple blocks from one of my favorite hang outs- I posted about it in Hardball's bully thread. Since that incident I've been thinking a lot more about potential threats and looking over my shoulder a lot more often. I don't normally carry a weapon but lately I wonder if maybe I shouldn't.

Maybe that sounded stupid but you can see it from the way they are talking, acting and where their hands are at the time

This is a good point; body language can tell you a lot about a person. It works in reverse too, I think it's very important to be aware of the message you send to others with your behavior. In my experience a petite and attractive cocktail waitress with a salty attitude might well be safer than a tourist no matter how big and burly they might based solely on their body language.

[Eliot]

I have been a police officer for 15 years and I can tell you with a fair degree of certanty, if you strike first you better be able to articulate that you felt threatened or you felt your life was in danger. Otherwise you could be considered the aggressor in the confrontation.

[BoarSpear]

Ritualized Combat:
Ritualized Combat was termed by a police trainer by the name of Roland Ouellette. Basically, these "body language signs" are rituals that the human body will, in most cases, go through just prior, during, and after a physical confrontation ( not so different from the animal kingdom). These signs are important, why?, because they are really good warning signals to let you know what your potential attacker may be contemplating, even though he may not be “verbally” communicating this fact to you. Ritualized Combative signs have been both scientifically and empirically researched in such fields as “Human Performance” and “Neuro Linguistic Psychology.” Here in Canada, I have used “Ritualized Combative Signs” successfully in the Courts during expert testimony in Self-Defense cases. I also possess hundreds of hours of videotape of actual street fights, and when reviewed both in real time and in slow motion, everyone of the Ritualized Combative signs that I share in my articles and training, are seen prior, during, and after these fights. This is why I believe that all in the self-protection field should know about “Ritualized Combat”. So what are these signs?
Assault Not Imminent But Possible:
- Head, neck, shoulders go back (person making themselves look bigger)
- Face is red, twitching, jerking
- Lips pushed forward bearing teeth (you see the same things in dogs before attack)
- Breathing is fast and shallow (oxygenating the body preparing for fight, flight, hyper vigilance)
- Beads of sweat appear about the face/neck
- Thousand mile glare
- Exaggerated movements
- Finger pointing/ head pecking
- Totally ignores you
- Gives you excessive attention during normal conversation such as direct uninterrupted eye contact
- Goes from totally un-cooperative to totally cooperative ( people do not go from hot to cold they de-escalate over time)
- Acts stoned or drunk
- Directs anger towards other inanimate items such as tables, chairs, walls
If you find yourself confronted by a subject presenting these signs, awareness/self protection strategies should go up, and distance should be created. Your body language should be assertive but not threatening and don’t be afraid to allow the person to vent verbally.
Assault Is Imminent:
- face goes from red to white ( during a physical confrontation the blood will leave the surface of the body and pool to the big muscles and internal organs of the body needed for survival) In my job as a police officer I see this all the time and when I do one of two things are going to happen, the suspect is either going to fight or run
- Lips tighten over teeth
- Breathing is fast and deep
- Change of stance, their body blades and shoulder drops
- Hands closed into a fist (not uncommon to see the whites of knuckles due to hands being so tight)
- Bobbing up and down or rocking back and forth on feet (this is the bodies way to hide/ mask the initial movement of a first strike)
- Target glace (here you will see your opponent look to where he is going to hit, or where he is going to run/escape)
- Putting head and shin down (body wants to protect the airway, this action does so to a degree)
- Eye brows brought forward into a frown( again the body wants to naturally protect the visual system, this action does so to a degree)
- Stops all movements/ freezes in place
- Dropping center or lowering of body (no different that a cat or dog getting ready to pounce)
- Shedding cloths ( very common, you will see your attacker take his hat, coat, shirt, or bag off just prior to the assault)
- One syllable replies ( go from full sentences to one syllable replies….. reptilian brain is clicking in)
In this group of signs, you have about 1-1.5 seconds to act before your attacker either attacks or runs. If walking and talking your way out is inappropriate or unreasonable, then I teach “First Strike” philosophy, and continue on with a compound attack until your attacker is no longer a risk.
In both the Assault not Imminent and Assault Imminent phases, I do teach my students ( in some situations) to bring to the attention of the attacker what they are seeing why:
1) The attacker may not know what they are doing. A lot of these signs are autonomic in nature, meaning they happen without conscious thought.
2) The bigger reason, I believe, is for this purpose; most attackers will only attack you when they believe that they have the element of surprise. By sharing with them what you see, you take this primary tactic away from them.
IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN YOU SHOULD NOT LET THE PERSON KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SEEING, THUS USING THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE TO YOUR ADVANTAGE!!!!!!!!!!
If you have been able to deescalate the situation you have found yourself in, non-verbally, verbally or physically, also look for these Ritualized Combat signs that are good indicators to let you know that your opponent is no longer thinking about fighting:
Signs Of Submission:
- Putting hands up in front of body with palms facing out…. ( universal sign for stop stay back)
- Face returns to normal skin tone and color
- shaking hand. (almost as if the person has Alzheimer’s disease…. This shaking can be slight to extreme ….. bodies natural way to burn out the adrenalin, nor-adrenalin, epinephrine that it dumped into the body for fight, flight, hyper vigilance but was not used)
- turning of back with their hands covering their head ( ensure you can see their hands if not create distance NOW)
- backing off
- bowing of head and lowering of eyes
- verbal tone, volume, rate, slows back to normal / full sentences once again
- falling to the ground almost in a fetal position
- grooming gestures ( this one is weird but you will see it time and time again… person will adjust their clothing, play with their hair/mustache/beard, pick lint of their body….. you see this in cat and dogs after they fight and then groom themselves)
In all of the above noted signs, don’t just look for one, but rather clusters of two or more. If you see one and know what to look for, you will see others guaranteed. As a police officer who has been involved in many physical encounters, I can share with you and others that “Ritualized Combat” is a tool that you can use to your advantage. Many of my students , who are not police officers, who have found themselves in ‘situations” have also echoed the tactical benefit of such knowledge. One should also remember that a skilled attacker “may” be able to mask some of these signs, so never drop you guard and fall into a false sense of confidence !!!!!! Also remember that if the voice and body don’t match, always believe the body because the voice can LIE !!!!!! If your attacker is verbalizing the fact that he doesn’t want to fight, but yet he is showing Ritualized Combative signs that show otherwise, he’s a LLPOF ( liar, liar pants on fire)
Some people who don’t know about Ritualized Combat, call it “gut instinct/intuition” They are right !!!!!! The reason it is a “gut instinct/intuition” rather than a known empirical thing, is because no one has explained to them what “Ritualized Combat” is. What is happening in the “gut/ instinct” group, is that their “sub-conscious/reptilian brain” is picking up on these signs (rather than the conscious critical mind), thus turning on the warning bells. Some listen (the more experience), but most do not. Why can I say this, I am also a certified hypnotherapist and working towards my masters in Neuro Linguistic Psychology.
Considering the amount of knowledge out there, are there any other Ritualized Combative signs, that can be added to one of these three categories ????
Knowledge and the understanding and application of that knowledge is power !!!!!!
Strength and Honor
Darren Laur

http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/ritualized.htm

[treelizard]

I guess I'm not the best person to answer this because I probably imagine threats a lot more often than they actually exist, but it's hard to tell sometimes and I'd rather err on the side of caution. By that I don't mean that I'm going to punch out a stranger because I don't like the looks of them, but that I'm going to keep a close eye on people I don't know when I might not need to, and be incredibly rude to strangers when it wouldn't do any harm to be a bit more polite. We actually had a situation at this store I was hanging out in after hours with the owner, someone had left the door unlocked and so a customer came inside anyway, and I said, "We're closed." He kind of looked around, grabbed a flier, asked me if I had a copy of the free paper, what the hours were, etc. and I basically said, "There's a sign on the door." and "There's a paper across the street," and so forth. He thought I was being incredibly rude, but basically I felt threatened because I told him we were closed and he didn't immediately leave. Is that unreasonable? It's like this little boundary-setting game people play, and I'm determined not to give an inch... At a WSD class I took a long time ago we did some roleplaying where we took turns trying to see what it feels like to cross someone's boundaries verbally, we would roleplay a scenario and the person would stand up as soon as they felt uncomfortable. There was a very wide range, one woman was giving a complete stranger her home address and carrying on a conversation and didn't see a problem with this (on one end) and me on the other end I'd stand up because the person looked at me funny. I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in between.

I guess my answer to the question is this list of things I pay attention to:

1. How close is he standing?
2. Does he have a lot of friends around?
3. Does he look like he needs money (as in, my money)?
4. How does he respond to eye contact? Does he look back at me, look down, look away, is he oblivious to my presence?
5. Is he walking straight, seem stable, drunk or doped up, etc.?
6. If he asks me for the time/directions/money a cigarette, etc. and I respond with a curt, "No" or "I don't know," does he go away and ask someone else or keep hanging out?
7. Can I see his hands?
7. My intuition...

I'm still constantly honing these skills and one game I play with myself is to see if I can figure out whether the stranger I know is about to talk to me is going to ask me for money, my number or directions. And then if I'm wrong try to figure out where I messed up.

Great topic.

[BoarSpear]

Street 101:

Acknowledgements:

In preparing this post, I have attempted to put into writing some of the information that I have gleaned over the years specific to self protection and the “way of the street” In doing so , I had the opportunity to integrate a number of ideas and concepts from others in the field. To say that all of the information in this post was totally mine, would only ignore those people who have made this work possible.

I believe that there is no such thing as the “ultimate” fighting form. Every combative system has its own set of strengths and weaknesses. I believe the secret is to recognize and acknowledge those weaknesses and then go elsewhere to strengthen them. In doing so, there are a number of people who I must thank for the content of this post. Some of the below noted instructors/coaches/teachers I know personally and have trained with, others I only known through their own published works. It is because of these people that I have been able to strengthen my weaknesses and make this post possible:

Albert Carty
Gil Puder
Tony Blauer
Bradley Steiner
Marc McYoung
Peyton Quinn
Sammy Franco
Richard Dimitri
Geoff Thompson
Jim Grover
Jerry Van Cook

Taking It To The Streets:

The Police:

First of all, I am a police officer and have some knowledge in this topic. Most people believe that the police are the first line of defense. In a perfect world this may be true, but the fact is “YOU” are going to be the first line of defense. It is a fact that most police department are far more “reactive” to crime than “proactive.” Although I would love to see a police officer on every corner, the fact remains that this will never happen. In our world, there are more criminals that there are police officers, this is why we call what we do the “thin blue line”. Police officers understand that if the criminal element was to ban together as one cohesive entity, such as what happened in the L.A. riots after the Rodney King incident, there would be little police could do to regain control in the short term.



It is also a sad fact that unlike 30-40 years ago when most of the criminal element feared the police, today most do not and only see us as an “annoyance” to their criminal activity. Most of the experienced criminals know how not to get caught as well. We in policing usually catch the inexperienced, why?, because the experienced criminals have learned from their mistakes. The next sad thing is that even if the police do catch the criminal, many are soon released.


The Courts:

Even if the criminal is caught red handed committing the crime, the next step is court and the Criminal Justice system, or should I say “The Criminal’s Justice System.” Many criminals see the justice system as an advantage rather than a disadvantage. Why?, because most, including their lawyers, know the ins and outs of the judicial jungle, especially when it comes to a legal technicality or plea bargan. The fact remains that in some countries the criminal has nothing to loose but everything to gain by going to court. In some cases the punishment from the courts, if found guilty, does not deter the criminal from continuing on with their actions. The term “let the punishment fit the crime” seldom exists, but even if convicted to jail, there is a very real chance that the criminal will only have to serve 1/3 of their sentence anyways.


Who is the Street Predator:



So who is the Street Predator? The answer is “anyone”, but the average inmate housed in the Canadian Correctional system for violent crimes is:



- male between the ages of 15-24 years



- 5’9” - 6’0” tall



- 175 – 190 lbs


Most street predators can be split up into two categories; “The Amateur” and “The Professional”



The Amateur:

The amateur is an “ego” based animal who is looking for a fight “just because.” To be preyed upon by the amateur you do not have to be doing anything wrong, you just have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. This beast is usually very identifiable;



- usually walks with attitude

- elbows pushed away from body

- verbally aggressive and rude to people within a few feet

- confrontations are usually triggered by eye contact



Some of the “Ritualized” combative signs that are apparent from the amateur prior to contact, but not limited to, include:



- splaying arms to express exclamation

- beckoning with finger

- nodding of head, usually accompanies finger beckoning

- bulging eyes

- acquires innate fighting stance

- will close distance during confrontation

The Professional:

The professional street predator is someone who I like to identify as the serial mugger, serial rapist, serial killer. These beasts usually attack for profit and not because they want to fight. These animals are a little harder to identify as they merge into society quite well and usually prey upon targets that have “no” situational awareness. When the professional strikes a target they usually follow a seven step process of target acquisition:


Step #1: victim selection:



- looking for subjects with no situational awareness

- attacks usually occur in sparsely populated locations out the view of witnesses and therefore reduces the chances of being seen heard or caught



Step #2: Victim Stalking:



- Once a target has been identified the professional will usually stalk first

- They are waiting for the time and place that suits their need for privacy and control


Step #3: Victim/Predator Positioning:


- the professional must place themselves in position to either attack by surprise or engage in a “street Interview”

- remember this beast is a lazy animal and does not want to fight but totally overwhelm



The professional will usually use one of five “relative” positioning tactics to set their intended victim up for attack:



1) Closing:



- Most common, walks directly up to target to get as close as they can

- the closer they get the more success he will have in his abilities to overwhelm and control

- this is why the “reaction gap” is so important once you have identified a person as a threat. If the threat has breached the gap when you have told him not to, he has clearly announced that his intentions are not good



2) Cornering/ Trapping:



- this is the second most commonly used tactic

- will want to corner you between himself, you, and any safe exit point





3) Surprise



- Surprise is the primary tactic that an attacker depends upon for full advantage



4) Pincer:



- usually used by two or more criminals

- one circles while the other distracts you

- one attacker follows from behind and while you are focused on them, there is a second attacker just up ahead

- things to be aware of, two people standing across from one another in a narrow space such as a hallway, staircase, or alley



5) Surround:



- most common in “packs” or “swarms”

- one in the pack will distract while the others surround

- instead of a fast swarm, the pack will usually drift towards you so as not to alert you to their intentions


Step #4: Testing the Waters:



- only used if the element of surprise is not available

- here the predator will use one or more “street interviewing tactics” to see if you are a low risk high gain target





A) reasonable request interview:



- will ask you for the time, match, cigarette, spare change, directions

- as you are complying with their request, the attacker moves into a surprise attack position.

- This is a classic “distraction technique”



B) The Distant Interview:



- takes place from a distance

- attacker is assessing your body language and awareness level

- the professional uses this method regularly to identify targets of opportunity

- most criminals are in plain view but because of no “situational awareness” the intended victim fails to recognize the fact that they are there



C) The Escalating Interview:



- usually takes place in a pack situation

- starts off small but builds to the boiling point

- weapons are usually involved

- men are really bad for this because of “ego”





D) the Bully Interview:



- will say things to you such as “ what the **** are you looking at”

- the attacker hopes that by saying this to you, you will respond in kind thus giving them the reason that they were looking for to engage you either verbally and or physically

- this interview usually starts with the eye glare which then moves to the bully question which then leads to an escalating interview and then goes physical







E) the Bully Interview:



- Continual eye contact made (non-verbal challenge)

- The bully interview: what the **** are you looking at

- The approach towards you

- The bully question reiterated

- The response from you; usually a verbal challenge

- Escalating interview back and forth

- Actual physical challenge: let’s fucking go right now

- Single syllable replies back and forth

- The actual attack; usually a hooking sucker punch

- During the last few stages prior to actual physical attack, not uncommon to have finger pointing, arm flailing, and slight one or two hand pushes. These are done as an intelligence gathering technique to ascertain your intentions and abilities to fight back









Step #5: The Assessment Stage:



- if after steps 1-4 there is a positive assessment by the professional, they will usually attack using the element of surprise. If there is a negative assessment and the victim appears to be ware of what is going on, the attacker will usually abort their attack and move onto another safe target





Step #6: Using Threats Of Violence:



- If a positive threat assessment has been made by the professional in step #5, it is usually followed by verbal threats which are sometimes aided by a weapon or an accomplice or both

- These threats are very direct and extremely violent in nature using very course language

- The professionals “goal” here is to create a state of “hyper vigilance” to cause you to go into “brain fart” mode. Why ? because the professional understands that the mind guides the body. If they can get you into brain fart mode their in control.

- It is also very common that the attacker will promise not to hurt you if you comply with their requests. Why? They don’t want you to make a scene that increases the risks of them being seen, heard, or caught.


Step #6: the Attack:



- after step #6 the professional now engages

- some of these attacks may be minimal, intended only to freeze you allowing them to take what they want. Most, however, will be frenzied and severe with one intent, to totally disable or even kill you before you can launch an effective counter attack


Although both the amateur and professional attacker are two different beasts, both will exhibit one or more pre-assaultive signs (Ritualized Combat) that if you know what to look for are real good indicators ( warning bells) to let you know what may be happening.

http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/street_101.htm

[Tant01]

My e-buddy Peyton Quinn has a couple of interesting books on the subject.


He also operates a training center in Co. RMCAT. Interesting scenario training and practical adrenal response conditioning. His weapons program is top notch.

[Sagacious Lu]

Wow, thanks Boar, there's a lot of great information in there.

I have been a police officer for 15 years and I can tell you with a fair degree of certanty, if you strike first you better be able to articulate that you felt threatened or you felt your life was in danger. Otherwise you could be considered the aggressor in the confrontation.

I know you're right about this, which is something I think about a lot. The last thing I want to do is damage my career by getting arrested over some macho BS. There has to be a line though, and I think it's important to have definate criteria for when it's time to attack. To me a person that refuses to respect your personal space is a threat can't be ignored.

The professional will usually use one of five “relative” positioning tactics to set their intended victim up for attack:
1) Closing:
- Most common, walks directly up to target to get as close as they can
- the closer they get the more success he will have in his abilities to overwhelm and control
- this is why the “reaction gap” is so important once you have identified a person as a threat. If the threat has breached the gap when you have told him not to, he has clearly announced that his intentions are not good

In a situation like this the sucker punch is coming no matter what you do, so why not do the unexpected and strike first? Under this type of circumstance I'm more afraid of what my opponent might do to me than I am of the possibility of legal repurcussions.

I guess I'm not the best person to answer this because I probably imagine threats a lot more often than they actually exist, but it's hard to tell sometimes and I'd rather err on the side of caution.

I'm still constantly honing these skills and one game I play with myself is to see if I can figure out whether the stranger I know is about to talk to me is going to ask me for money, my number or directions. And then if I'm wrong try to figure out where I messed up.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and it isn't always an easy thing to balance. It's foolish to think that there are no threats, but at the same time I can't afford to be afraid of the people who live around me. I do the same sort of thing; I make it a point to notice details about each individual around me so I have at least an idea of what to expect. The thing is I've found that if you pay to much attention to any one person it might attract their attention and cause an encounter that might not have happened otherwise.

My e-buddy Peyton Quinn has a couple of interesting books on the subject.
He also operates a training center in Co. RMCAT. Interesting scenario training and practical adrenal response conditioning. His weapons program is top notch.

His web site is very interesting. I like the idea of what he's trying to do a whole lot, although I wonder how much ground you can cover in a weekend course, or even a week long course. Have you taken any of his courses?

[Tant01]

No but I've read about them. Mr. Q. frequents an AOL martial arts forum and has his own message board called, appropriately enough "Peyton's Reality Check" I've been a member of that forum for 5 or 6 years now...

His long time friend and RMCAT Bulletman Bill Kipp started a defensive tactics and scenario based course called FAST defense... perhaps you have heard of it?

[Sagacious Lu]

No but I've read about them. Mr. Q. frequents an AOL martial arts forum and has his own message board called, appropriately enough "Peyton's Reality Check" I've been a member of that forum for 5 or 6 years now...

His long time friend and RMCAT Bulletman Bill Kipp started a defensive tactics and scenario based course called FAST defense... perhaps you have heard of it?

I don't know all that much about these types of programs. If nothing else the idea of going out to the Rocky Mountains to practice MA for a long weekend sounds like a lot of fun. I've been disappointed by short-term programs (seminars) in the past because they have too much material in too short a period of time. The advantage is that although I like practicing a traditional art a program like this one could help me bridge the gap to make it more practical in modern life.

[Tant01]

http://www.paladin-press.com/authormo_0304.aspx

Bill Kipp, Paladin Author of the month 3-04

http://www.fastdefense.com/

FAST DEFENSE webpage... Go check it out!

[Sagacious Lu]

Thanks a lot, that guy has a lot of cool ideas.

[treelizard]

I know you're right about this, which is something I think about a lot. The last thing I want to do is damage my career by getting arrested over some macho BS. There has to be a line though, and I think it's important to have definate criteria for when it's time to attack. To me a person that refuses to respect your personal space is a threat can't be ignored.

Anybody ever tried one of those dumb lines they give you in some SD seminars, "If you get any closer I will consider this an attack" type of thing? I think part of the purpose is to create witnesses, but I've never heard of anyone using this in real life. Closest I've heard is, "Your hands are making me nervous, I need to see your hands."

In a situation like this the sucker punch is coming no matter what you do, so why not do the unexpected and strike first? Under this type of circumstance I'm more afraid of what my opponent might do to me than I am of the possibility of legal repurcussions.

If I were on the jury I would want to know why, if you had so much time to realize a punch was coming, you weren't evading or leaving or whatnot instead of throwing the first punch.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and it isn't always an easy thing to balance. It's foolish to think that there are no threats, but at the same time I can't afford to be afraid of the people who live around me. I do the same sort of thing; I make it a point to notice details about each individual around me so I have at least an idea of what to expect. The thing is I've found that if you pay to much attention to any one person it might attract their attention and cause an encounter that might not have happened otherwise.

You just do it quietly I guess... I guess all of my scenarios are very WSD-oriented and it's hard for me to get out of that box, sorry about that.
But what I was thinking is that the way people react to me being cautious (or paranoid, depending on perspective) shows a lot about their personality. Like if somebody asks me to meet them for lunch and they can come pick me up and I say I'd rather just meet them somewhere and they push the issue and I eventually tell them I don't know them that well and want to have my own transportation, if they take it personally or tell me to calm down and it's not a big deal etc. etc. I will be MUCH more cautious/paranoid around them than if they say, "Oh, I understand."