Multiple Opponents

[Tom Yum]

who said choke? I said strangle...there IS a difference, if you use it without regard for the other guys welfare it isnt slow...as soon as you apply a PROPER strangle it will instantly induce PANIC....dont bother trying to figure it out if you havent had it done you wont understand the concept....there are different grips and hand positions that make these instantly effective/lethal...i know of NO way to safely apply it properly in a struggle...this can be applied and the damage done while spinning/launching the person into his buddies....you better intend to kill people though, because you may...

but there is a time and place for everything...human shields do work...but a knife or two in the clavicle makes a better handle than the strangle or RNC

Choke = Cut off air supply.
Strangle = Cut off blood flow.

Its all in the details...like you mentioned, diff. grips and hand positions. A rear naked choke could become a rear naked strangle.

I see what you mean. If you were defending against multiples and were thrown into a stand-up grappling situation, i.e. pull kneck and collar lock up, quick duck under into side choke or RNC, you could potentially use the guy as a shield against the others.

I wish I knew that years ago....

[Uke]

Okay, okay, Moses?

Moses? Hey Bro, my bush ain't burning. They sell penicillin for that now.

[thescottishdude]

yeah, a kinfe attack or even a bullet wound doesn't instantly kill people. The wound may be fatal but if it takes 5-10 minutes to die that's at least the rest of their clip emptied in your direction or them hitting you with something hard in the face.

[Sagacious Lu]

You might THINK that, huh? It only takes a moment to CRUSH a trachea...Granted your sport version of a strangle is nice and gentle, works fast enough for a player (to tap out) and requires BOTH arms to "lock it up" but trust me here, the trachea will STAY damaged long after they let go of you. It can be crushed with the forearm or a ridge hand strike or a "judo" chop. No need to hang on to it.

who said choke? I said strangle...there IS a difference, if you use it without regard for the other guys welfare it isnt slow

This is the part that I'm missing. If you say you know a variation of the RNC that can damage the trachea that badly I'm willing to take your word for it- at least until I get a chance to train with someone that can show me how the technique works so I can see for myself. Fair play, I'll have to do some more homework. The idea of taking a hostage certainly makes sense if you have a knife, I just don't understand how you're going to generate that much leverage with your bare-hands. I've seen people take some nasty shots to the throat and although they obviously hurt like hell and will make the victim gag a wheeze for a while they've never needed medical attention. I'm don't think it's impossible but I know crushing the trachea is a hell of a lot harder than a lot of MA want to think.

[SamuraiGuy]

I've seen people take some nasty shots to the throat and although they obviously hurt like hell and will make the victim gag a wheeze for a while they've never needed medical attention. .

You say that, and you say the part that your missing is that you may not be able to damage the trachea that badly.

The part your missing is doing this, the whole grabbing of the trachea, choke hold on the "hostage" isnt necessarily to hurt the hostage as bad as you can, its to make the other attackers scared, scared of you, scared for their friends life, etc... Its to damage them psychologically.

You could try to damage the trachea and kill the person that way, and it can be done, and you should be prepared to do it if you need to... but... its the panic it causes in the victim, and the attackers reactions that come from it, that you are after.

[Tant01]

"It does not really matter how much of a bodybuilder you are or how tough you are. You cannot grow muscle over the trachea and you cannot survive with a crushed trachea."

Don Rearic

Medical tests have established that the amount of pressure needed to occlude the arteries is six times less than the pressure needed to collapse the airway.

From article "Different Chokes for Different Folks"
by Neil Ohlenkamp

[BoarSpear]

Moses? Hey Bro, my bush ain't burning. They sell penicillin for that now.

Hehehehehe Moses Powell It sounded like Moses's teaching, i could almost hear Moses in your post...

[Uke]

Hehehehehe Moses Powell It sounded like Moses's teaching, i could almost hear Moses in your post...

I knew what you meant, but I also thought you'd find that funny.

[BoarSpear]

I knew what you meant, but I also thought you'd find that funny.

in that cae it worked

[Tom Yum]

There is NOTHING like leaving the confines in which you train in and getting your ass whipped to show you how much you don't know and how much you still have to learn. Every real martial artists has gone through this if he was sincere in his pursuit of becoming his best. If you haven't, you're more like a weekend warrior looking to learn some "moves" or build some insignificant record of dojo wins that won't make a difference once the sh!t hits the fan.

Well....

I probably won't be the best. I won't become the light-heavyweight or supper middleweight champion.

But I've covered, parried, rolled, slipped and taken a few punches while sparring full speed.

I've floored larger, intimidating dudes with less training than myself and have been floored by some incredibly talented boxers/kickboxers/grapplers, some who've put in more training time, some who've fought professionally.

That's okay. I enjoy the training. I guess that makes me a weekend warrior too.

[GQchris]

Well....

I probably won't be the best. I won't become the light-heavyweight or supper middleweight champion.

But I've covered, parried, rolled, slipped and taken a few punches while sparring full speed.

I've floored larger, intimidating dudes with less training than myself and have been floored by some incredibly talented boxers/kickboxers/grapplers, some who've put in more training time, some who've fought professionally.

That's okay. I enjoy the training. I guess that makes me a weekend warrior too.

you got heart, and thats what really counts... kind of like Rudy, from the movie where he gets pummeled by bigger football players but keeps coming back for more... but I know you're not dorky like the guy who played Rudy in that movie Tom

[Uke]

Tom Yum

Well....

I probably won't be the best. I won't become the light-heavyweight or supper middleweight champion.

But I've covered, parried, rolled, slipped and taken a few punches while sparring full speed.

I've floored larger, intimidating dudes with less training than myself and have been floored by some incredibly talented boxers/kickboxers/grapplers, some who've put in more training time, some who've fought professionally.

That's okay. I enjoy the training. I guess that makes me a weekend warrior too.

Without being disrespectful, its does. Either you train to be proficient in something, or you do it recreationally, which is tantamount to being a weekend warrior. That's not a bad thing. I think you may have interpreted that term as me slighting you, but rest assured I have no reason to. My comments were less about heart and willingness to fight, and more about having a good, thorough schooling in whatever it is you chose to study.

Now, without having to be hostile, I wrote what was true. The more time you invest in a thing, the better you will be as long as you have quality instruction. That's why fanatics are always the best. They invest their whole being into the practice and pursuit of what they wish to accomplish.

Since we were speaking in terms of boxing, let's use that. A great example of what I am saying is the fight between Arturo Gatti and Mickey Ward I. I'm not sure how often you watch boxing, but this was a great fight. To see these guys go toe to toe for 12 rounds was the new Hagler/Hearns 2000. Great action. Great displays of heart. Great shows of resilience. This fight will be remembered as a classic. BUT!!!!! are either of those two GREAT boxers??? No, they are not. They are professionals. Gatti has even been jr welterweight champion. But neither Gatti or Ward, by any measure, are great boxers. Would they look good against someone that is at their skill level? Yes. Would they look very impressive against someone who trains at a local gym and doesn't have a trainer who will bring their skill and talent up to a pro level? They would look like phenoms. But against true great boxers, they would look like novices, as Gatti did against Mayweather. And it wasn't because Gatti didn't come to fight. It was because of the difference in pedigree and skill.

Its the same in martial arts. The "McDojo's" are usually schools that are opened by guys that have received some sort of rank or certification, and have a desire to teach. Many times, but not always, the instructor is a victim of another McDojo. He showed up for class, and paid his dues on time. He passed belt or sash tests and he became an instructor in a couple of years. I'm sure he might have won against some of his bigger and stronger classmates. I'm sure he's overcome some odds that validate his training in his own mind.

But if he were to go out and seek those who have trained much more intensely and have been schooled in comprehensive methods, he would then soon realize how much he did not know and how far he would have to go. Its not that he wasn't the best in his own organization. Its just that when someone trains in a microcosm, the ability to accurately gauge where rudimentary skills end and proficient skills begin is nonexistent.

Lastly Tom Yum, I believe we are doing this thread a disservice by carrying on our own conversation that has nothing to do with multiple opponents. If you'd like, we could continue on another forum where this would be appropriate.

[Tom Yum]

Without being disrespectful, its does. Either you train to be proficient in something, or you do it recreationally, which is tantamount to being a weekend warrior. That's not a bad thing. I think you may have interpreted that term as me slighting you, but rest assured I have no reason to. My comments were less about heart and willingness to fight, and more about having a good, thorough schooling in whatever it is you chose to study.

Now, without having to be hostile, I wrote what was true. The more time you invest in a thing, the better you will be as long as you have quality instruction. That's why fanatics are always the best. They invest their whole being into the practice and pursuit of what they wish to accomplish.

Since we were speaking in terms of boxing, let's use that. A great example of what I am saying is the fight between Arturo Gatti and Mickey Ward I. I'm not sure how often you watch boxing, but this was a great fight. To see these guys go toe to toe for 12 rounds was the new Hagler/Hearns 2000. Great action. Great displays of heart. Great shows of resilience. This fight will be remembered as a classic. BUT!!!!! are either of those two GREAT boxers??? No, they are not. They are professionals. Gatti has even been jr welterweight champion. But neither Gatti or Ward, by any measure, are great boxers. Would they look good against someone that is at their skill level? Yes. Would they look very impressive against someone who trains at a local gym and doesn't have a trainer who will bring their skill and talent up to a pro level? They would look like phenoms. But against true great boxers, they would look like novices, as Gatti did against Mayweather. And it wasn't because Gatti didn't come to fight. It was because of the difference in pedigree and skill.

Yeah, I've seen Gatti v. Ward. Great fight!!

You're talking about good boxers against the greatest. I agree. We can move this into the boxing thread if you'd like.

Thanks.

[Uke]

Yeah, I've seen Gatti v. Ward. Great fight!!

You're talking about good boxers against the greatest. I agree. We can move this into the boxing thread if you'd like.

Thanks.

Agreed. I'll see you at:

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?p=212856#post212856

[Tom Yum]

you got heart, and thats what really counts... kind of like Rudy, from the movie where he gets pummeled by bigger football players but keeps coming back for more... but I know you're not dorky like the guy who played Rudy in that movie Tom

Thanks, Chris.

I crack jokes about myself cause its easy What fun is life if you can't laugh at yourself every now and then?

But I ain't one of those friggin Emo's. Man, that's annoying.