On Killing/On Combat

[Tant01]

Ask yourself???

..........

...anyway...Yes we are trained killers before the age of 18, i love killing things in the arcade..im good at it, does that make me wrong?

It's not wrong exactly but it makes the act of murder that much easier for you to do... People are born with a sense of right and wrong but YOU had to ask "does that make me wrong?" It makes you less likely to think twice about carrying out the act.

In a situation that requires lethal force I would prefer to have a crack shot for backup but not a blood thirsty, trigger happy killer that might actually ENJOY killing real people...

See where I'm going?

In a combat situation it can be okay, on the police shooting team it can be okay but there is a part of you lost forever that detests bloodshed. Do you love it REALLY? Or do you enjoy the challenge of getting a high score? Do you laugh at the bloodsplatter and falling humanoid targets or does the thought somehow seem revolting deep inside you?

You know?

You really must question that part of your soul that might actually enjoy killing because you are functionally a cold blooded murderer already if that's the case? Think about it.

It's worth questioning from a morality standpoint. If you care. Otherwise it's already too late. Not that you will ever kill your friends or enemies when there are more reasonable alternatives but what if some guy tries to sell your son or daughter drugs one day? You going to kill them? What if some freak molests your son or daughter one day? You want to shoot them dead? It is not unreasonable to think about it but you have programmed yourself thousands of times already to lock and load and carry out the act... will you use reason and good judgment? Call the police and let the authorities handle it or will the burning desire for retribution fuel a violent end to the situation? You end up going to prison for life because you wanted to see his blood on the walls, right?

Just a thing to think about? Not to say you will ever be sadistic or a violent felon but could you see it going down that way more for yourself than for someone that never touched a gun?

Seriously, I'm not judging you or trying to hurt your feelings but asking you to look at that part of yourself closely and ask. Am I that kind of person? What kind of person do you want to be?

[Garland]

I think he's saying he loves killing things "in the arcade".
He's too fucking immature, or more likely, too fucking dumb to realize the difference. That may be a good thing, because hopefully he'll never have to see one of his friends intestines poking out the side, much less have to find a way to hold them in before rushing them to a hospital. When you see what the effects of a knife are to human flesh, you tend to respect how fragile and important life is.

There are a few groups of people that kill,
those by accident

those for self defense (I'm making a non-orthodox distinction between self preservation and self defense...I hope you guys can see the difference.)

those for self preservation/promotion, which may include at the lower ethical side of the scale robbers and muggers...drug dealers, etc.

those who do so in war or in the line of work, again mostly out of self defense or self preservation.

those who do so in the course of not knowing any better...jaded by whatever influences in their life they decided to try it- expiremental killers.

Sadists. true honest to god, sickos and sociopaths.

I do believe that we have part of us that is capable of killing and to some extent relishing the fact that we are still alive and they aren't. There is something predatory in us, but it doesn't really ENJOY or get off on it. Homo homini lupus...we are animals deep down, and need all of the primary things animals need, plus some, so it is probably natural to want to remove living barriers to that, not necassarily through violence or even intimidation. Occassionally people kill for turf, and intimidation, we kill for other people's shit...instrumental hostility is part of human nature, but we don't enjoy the killing itself.*

*I think the point Grossman makes is that we trivialize violence by making killing a game...not only that but we enjoy competition, and therefore can be conditioned to enjoy violence. I agree with that to a point, but I think it takes a different type of person to enjoy ACTUAL, FOR REAL, killing.

But what do I know...I've never killed anyone...and I don't think I ever will, unless I fall into the accident or self defense category...which may blur a bit.

[HtTKar]

What if some freak molests your son or daughter one day? You want to shoot them dead?

ha. Not only would I kill them, but chop them into little itty bitty pieces first. This isnt because I've read books, or played internet games. This would be protecting the ones I love the most.

On the flip side. I've read tons of psychology books, books on being a better person, and self control. But if it comes down to someone molesting my children....they're dead. Books just wouldnt really come into play one way or the other.

In my personal opinion. People are born to kill. Its part of survival. If we didnt have video games we'd be out shooting birds with bb guns. Society raises us to NOT be killers the same way we raise our dogs to eat out of bowls instead of running down neighborhood cats.

Either way, tanto, thank you for the link. I really enjoy reading books, articles and letters written by experienced martial artists. There is always something to learn, and new questions to be asked. Thats why I read the forums in the first place. Thanks.

[nutter]

This thread is about two books that are related to combat. If you don't like books go post on some other thread!

Aren't you quoting yourself there mate? And why the "ban him" picture right, you wanna ban me just cos I don't share your warped world view. Cool stuff Mr Open Minded super keyboard warrrior right.

[Tant01]

I want you banned because you have NOTHING of value to contribute to this thread (or the forum) and yet you keep posting in it for no other reason than to badger me and waste space. You're a troll "mate"



Stick to the topic.

[bigred389]

To clarify a few things, Grossman says there are two groups...those that enjoy killing and those who don't. 98% of people don't enjoy it, 2% enjoy it, or at least are unaffected by it. This was a study done on WW2 soldiers(males) where they examined who eventually "snapped" under the strain of repeated frontline combat and who didn't. Consistently, they found the MOST stressful factor was a combination of having to kill another human being, along with the knowledge they would feel guilt if someone they DIDN'T kill killed one of their buddies. Big phucking dilemma huh?

But 2% of people don't have a violent reaction to killing. Those are the "natural" warriors, the people who kill without remorse. Sometimes they're sociopaths...that's true and they should be locked up.
But some are also soldiers, cops, etc., who are merely waiting for the opportunity to "do their thing."

However, studies have also shown that we can condition ourselves to approach similar performance levels as that "natural" 2%. This makes sense, as we don't know exactly WHY that 2% abnormality exists...it could be genes, upbringing, etc., meaning it can be replicated.

In the case of kids, it won't make a kid a killer. However, most studies of child killers like the ones from Columbine show obsession with violent video games, and a REMARKABLE skill and methodical firing. They ALL fired extremely accurately. Contrast that to trained NYPD officers in the Amadou Diallo shooting. Very few hits out of almost 50 rds fired from close range. That was panicked spray and pray fire because they were not desensitized to taking a life, but were in fear of their lives. The child killers never exist this pattern, it's always cool methodical shooting, like at a target range, like we want our soldiers to perform, and like a video game.

I love violent video games and gory first person shooters, but Grossman's got me convinced.

[Tom Yum]

However, most studies of child killers like the ones from Columbine show obsession with violent video games, and a REMARKABLE skill and methodical firing. They ALL fired extremely accurately. Contrast that to trained NYPD officers in the Amadou Diallo shooting. Very few hits out of almost 50 rds fired from close range. That was panicked spray and pray fire because they were not desensitized to taking a life, but were in fear of their lives. The child killers never exist this pattern, it's always cool methodical shooting, like at a target range, like we want our soldiers to perform, and like a video game.

I love violent video games and gory first person shooters, but Grossman's got me convinced.

The Army recruiting truck came by last year with their mobile recruiting station. Its like this mini-museum. They had the FATS training module up. That was pretty cool because the rifle you play with probably weighs about the same as a real one I think.

Yeah, I've been told strangely enough that many 1st person games are good for training....

[Garland]

Here...this is from Khru Brian Yamasaki's website;


Title: A Correspondance with Lt. Col Dave Grossman
Subject: Concept
Author: Brian Yamasaki
Written On: 1/11/2006 12:11:33 PM
Below is a an e-mail I recently wrote to Lt. Col. Dave Grossman (ret.). And below it his response. If you wish to learn more about Lt. Col. Grossman, his works "On Killing", "On Combat", and his ground breaking work in the field of "Killology" I very highly reccomend those resources as well as his articles available from his website at: www.killology.com

Lt. Col. Grossman handles this extremely important and taboo topic with a sensitivity and tact that are absolutely unparalleled. In my humble oppinion, his works are more about the beauty of human kind (it's innate reverance for the sanctity of life) and the preservation of our young than of the destruction of human beings. His work and efforts towards educating the public and the media about the effects of violent imagry on children are heartfelt, sincere and requisite for the health of future generations. It was in fact, a result of his concern for our children that inspired this correspondance.

Printed with the author's permission is the following e-mail correspondence: ________________________________________

Lt. Col. Dave Grossman,

My name is Brian Yamasaki. I am a 30 year old martial arts enthusiast from Bountiful Utah. I am a full time father and a trainer of professional Muay Thai (Thai Boxing) and Mixed Martial Arts (No Holds Barred) fighters.

I began reading On Killing purely to find ways to help desensitize myself and my students (who are generally very humble and gentle human beings) to the very intense and inate phobia of being involved with interpersonal human agression as well as with intentionally inflicting harm to another human being (this was especially the case with my full contact fighters). But I soon found that your work was much more than a manual on the destruction of other human beings. It was moreso the building up and reinforcement of those strong individuals, the warriors, the guard dogs of our world that we all aspire to follow and become.

In your books and articles, I found not only the means to make myself and my students more effective fighters but perhaps more importantly, more healty and happy human beings. I found another key to understanding that strange paradox which is interwoven into violence and conflict and those of us who are stragely drawn to such a paradox.

Thank you so much for your hard work, your sacrifices, and for sharing your brilliance with the rest of us.

If you have the time, and wouldn't mind, I would very much like to ask you a few questions.

The first is about the brain scans shown in your book "On Combat" (the ones featuring those of children who had been exposed to a lot of violent media and those that hadn't and their respective logic centers). In terms of training combat oriented individuals, do you think it would ever be preferable to have a brain that was not as analytical and logical? There are many times during the course of a fight that reaction, patterened, trained responses would be preferable to sitting and trying to analyze the best course of escape or counter attack as doing so would have unfavorable results (kind of like the soldier that hears incoming shells and hits the deck without having to think about it).

There are times that a seasoned fighter can relax and "pick appart" their opponent, and in these instances I can see how the logic center of the brain would have its place. But what about when the adversary is pressing with heavy, agressive pressure? Would having a brain that looks like the ones with an active logic center impede the individual in this situation?

My second question is more personal. I have a 15 month old son. I really have enjoyed and appreciated your information on the development of children and the effects of violent media. Before I read On Combat, I had sat my son on my lap to watch No Holds Barred (UFC, Pride, Ultimate Combat), Boxing and Muay Thai fights. After reading that young children should not be exposed to violent media until ages 6/7 I have since stopped. But my question is, have I scarred him for life? Is imagry such as mentioned above, in your oppinion, too violent? My son has also seen me playfully rolling, submission wrestling and lightly timing sparring with my cousins and students. Should I also keep him from seeing interactions such as this? Would these be considered violent in nature for a boy of his age?

Thank you again for your time and consideration. I know you are a busy man and hope that these questions have not been burdensome or unrelated to your field of expertese. I hope that they are not questions unworthy of your attention, however I completely understand if they fall into that category. Especially since there are many other, more pressing and important things you could be doing for man kind.

Please press on and continue your research. Please continue enlightening the rest of us from the dark ages of our own humanity and inhumanity.

___________________________________

Many thanks for your kind note, Brian. I am deeply honored by your words, and the knowledge that my work could be of service to you, my brother warrior and fellow Sheepdog.

As to the brain scans, I think the key point is that those kids do not have the ability for higher level, logical, rational, predictive thought. They simply cannot do it. Whereas a warrior (as you so rightly and ably put it) has to be able to draw from both, the logical, rational brain AND the instinctive trained brain. The one is the safeguard that prevents the other from being a danger...

And, no, I do not think your son is scarred. It take a lot of repetition to have a major effect, and even then most kids turn out fine. But it is like not wearing seatbelts: an unneccesary risk factor. If we love them (and we do) we will do the best we can, an dthat is all we can do... ;=) I think that watching the interaction in your dojo is a GOOD thing for your son. He sees the discipline, the after effects of those who are hurt and nurse and injury for days and weeks, and all the other, healthy, holistic aspects that TV does not show...

Again, many thanks for your kind words, and most of all *I* thank YOU for keeping the faith. Keep up the great job on your front, my brother!

Hooah! Dave

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[Garland]

I hope he doesn't get upset for posting it outside his members area...there's alot of gold back there, sign up and check it out.

[Tant01]

Picked up a copy of "On Killing"...
Interesting work... I'm just starting Ch. 2 but the historical refrences of combat so far are very interesting.

Thanks for the heads up Bigred!

[bigred389]

No prob. Let us know what you thought of it when you're done.