Serious question about rbsd

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Even if the style of Kung fu one does has grappling(stand up and ground), its not in the same league as BJJ grappling and Kung Fu does not usually train in conditions where one person is going at with another 100% because KF is too deadly. In BJJ you go 100% each time(if you want) without even getting injured, this allows its practioners to get really good at what theyre doing thus making the art more effective in any situation.

[J-Luck]

I'm gonna have to disagree with ya a little triangle. I thought it was a good post... but I've been on my back in fights before, it's not fun... hurts your spine, your back in general, and I've even been on my back while on the steet, with the back of my head going into a curb with a dude taking swings on top. I think the whole being on my back hurt pretty badly during and after, everytime I've been on my back or side on pavement/concrete. And the whole glass thing, Im lucky enough to not have that happen to me, But I did toss a dude one time when he had a beer bottle in his hand and it broke on the way down, with me on top of him swinging. My boys pulled me off cause he was bleeding alot. THROUGH A WINTER JACKET... the gracies like to say these factors are very minimal... and maybe their right, but through my experiences I BEG TO DIFFER lol. I think like I said in my above post, ground skills are necessary... but being on your back is a bad idea.

[nutter]

So ?ing ??un is better then?

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

but I think other grappling, such as throwing is better suited for real life. I mean if you end up on the ground on your back, then why not know how to get out of it I guess, better than nothing.

Although ground work is emphasized more in BJJ, Judo throws and wrestling takedowns are taught and trained thoroughly at a BJJ school too. But someone in the background of Judo/wrestling will be more skilled at takedowns but when it goes to the ground, its all BJJ. But for a real street fight, its better to be good at takedowns/throws than its is to know how to reverse of your back or do submissions on the ground.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

So ?ing ??un is better then?

Obviously BJJ is better for the street and obviously thats not the only thing one must know. Combined it with wrestling/judo(techniquely part of BJJ), Wing Chun and/or MT with Silat and youre almost a complete self defender.


So far, Kung Fu:0 BJJ:2

:::Kung Fu needs a comeback:::

[J-Luck]

Although ground work is emphasized more in BJJ, Judo throws and wrestling takedowns are taught and trained thoroughly at a BJJ school too. But someone in the background of Judo/wrestling will be more skilled at takedowns but when it goes to the ground, its all BJJ. But for a real street fight, its better to be good at takedowns/throws than its is to know how to reverse of your back or do submissions on the ground.

First off, submissions on the ground... not that it's impossible, but im not sure if you read what I wrote... very difficult. Not to mention pulling guard in the UFC is bad enough and you can get pounded for it, imagine on a hard street that DOES inflict damage as I have said. Trust me, talk is all good untill you're on your back dodging punches and if your elbow even hits the ground with slight force it hurts, and your back is already in pain, and you're working a submission. In this respect, wrestling and Judo are more effective. Takedowns and throws(wrestling has alot of throws too), when done with any power, are fight enders. And say you don't get a powerful takedown/throw, judo does have some groundwork, and wrestling teaches you to stay off your back and put the other guy on his, (and wrestling has heavy emphasis on groundword) which is devastating, since on any hard surface, you would not want to be on your back at all.

[J-Luck]

Actually wrestling is completely seperate,(all styles) and older than Judo and BJJ... and BJJ is TECHNICALLY part of old school Judo, just modified to emphasise ground fighting.

[J-Luck]

And takedowns are not heavily emphasised in BJJ schools, they are taught much less. Hence, most people start rolling on their knees.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

First off, submissions on the ground... not that it's impossible, but im not sure if you read what I wrote... very difficult. Not to mention pulling guard in the UFC is bad enough and you can get pounded for it, imagine on a hard street that DOES inflict damage as I have said. Trust me, talk is all good untill you're on your back dodging punches and if your elbow even hits the ground with slight force it hurts, and your back is already in pain, and you're working a submission. In this respect, wrestling and Judo are more effective. Takedowns and throws(wrestling has alot of throws too), when done with any power, are fight enders. And say you don't get a powerful takedown/throw, judo does have some groundwork, and wrestling teaches you to stay off your back and put the other guy on his, (and wrestling has heavy emphasis on groundword) which is devastating, since on any hard surface, you would not want to be on your back at all.

I completely agree, Wrestling/Judo are very dominate styles but one has to know BJJ in case youre taken down...

[Tant01]

This crap just goes from bad to worse... Triangle is some kind of master fighter now, eh? Expert grappler and Judo champion?

What do you know about silat? You think a silat man needs some BJJ in his game to be a complete fighter? And Judo and wrestling are part of BJJ, eh?




Well, I see I'm not needed here. You players have fun...

[gregimotis]

The only time BJJ is bad is when there is multiple opponents(any MA is not nearly effective in that situation). Going to the ground on hard concrete even if there's broken glass all over the place is really not that bad(as everyone makes it out to be), if youre a grappler, its alot worse for your opponent.

That is a really good point and on I've thought but never posted. If the BJJ'er shoots and drops opponent on the asphalt, that oponent is screwed. Even if he has a weapon in his pocket, he's is going to have a hard time getting it out while getting the knee on stomach/ ground-n-pound/ armbar/ insert appropriate technique here.

And when weapons are involved, you run away, but if you absolutely have to fight, what are you gonna do, strike with an armed opp.? With grappling, you'd have a lot higher chance of winning because you coould neutralize the movement of the attacker's limbs which have a knife. But if YOU have a knife and you have to fight, use the knife, not grappling, duh.

I'm not quite as close behind this one, I think a striker would do better than a grappler here - but it's worth considering. Especially when we start by qualifing that anybody without a weapon is in trouble.

The truth is, alot of fights do occur without weapons and for a short period of time there is no one around, so a BJJ guy would definetly win even over a trained opponent quickly(unless that opponent was also a SKILLED grappler). The BJJ guy could flee after the fight has been ended(which ever way possible with grappling involved) to avoid other enemies.

If there's one thing MMA has shown pretty conclusively, it's that a pure grappler tends to do well against a pure striker of similar training. They don't always win, and the ring ain't the street, but if I had to bet on a pure BJJ'er or a pure western boxer in the octagon - I'm going for the BJJ'er. [/QUOTE]

Although BJJ has sportitive training methods, that does not mean its not applicable for the street. Almost all MA with sportitive roots are applicable to REAL combat(wrestling, MT, boxing, Karate, Escrima).

Got to agree again - If nothing else, a BJJ'er will be in good shape, and will have faced full power/full resistance competition. He knows what he can pull off and what he can't pull off from real testing against both experienced grapplers and against newbies doing there best.

I dont think grappling is the style to study if self defense is your goal. If self-defense is what you care about, then you need to be in a RBSD type school with weapons, striking, awareness, tactics etc all geared to gutter fighting.

I also think boxing (just to pick a striking style) is better for self defense than BJJ generally for these reasons: A boxer will also be in shape and have faced resisting opponents. A hard fist followed by two more hard shots will end a fight faster than a takedown (I think). A boxer is less likely to be shocked if he gets hit than someone who isn;t used to it, and he is less likely to be intimidated by a fist coming his way.

One final thought; A boxer with a knife in his lead hand is going to be a seriously dangerous individual. Surely that is damned obvious to anyone.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

This crap just goes from bad to worse... Triangle is some kind of master fighter now, eh? Expert grappler and Judo champion?

What do you know about silat? You think a silat man needs some BJJ in his game to be a complete fighter? And Judo and wrestling are part of BJJ, eh?




Well, I see I'm not needed here. You players have fun...

LMAO.

Since a Silat fighter would be armed it is not neccesary for him to expert in BJJ. But wouldnt it be beneficial for a BJJ'r to expert in Silat?
Grappling is made up of wrestling,Judo,BJJ, and some of styles, and BJJ is pretty much the most complete style of grappling. Usually people who do BJJ already have background in wrestling or Judo, especially wrestling.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

One final thought; A boxer with a knife in his lead hand is going to be a seriously dangerous individual. Surely that is damned obvious to anyone.

I never thought of that, but thats another strong argument about how "sport" MA, especially Boxing/MT are even more applicable to the street.

Status: Kung Fu-0 BJJ-3

::::Kung Fu taps out::::

[J-Luck]

I'm sorry if I seem argumentative here. But as I've stated above I've been in enough, and seen even more situations under different circumstances to say that I'm at least somewhat qualified to speak on what CAN HAPPEN in a real fight. I think BJJ, wrestling, and Judo are all good in a real fight, so long as you do not go to your back, going to your back might not end a fight, but go try doing just... 2-3 min rolling out on a sidewalk or street near you. Maybe even a tile floor... hardwood floor. Watch how quickly your back, elbows, arms, and body start to hurt. The pavement/concrete will hurt much more though. In a real fight, always stay on top, and if your graced with being on the bottom, get out quick. I have a messed up elbow(it's not that bad but it still has lost flexibility) from a fight I got into with a bigger guy(I had just wrestled at that point, no introduction into BJJ, not that i know much in it now) and I ended up on the top of a rolling fall, though he was behind me. I was on top, with my back to his stomach(he didnt know what he was doing but was way stronger and I had trouble doing much of anything). He kept trying to punch me in the face, which really wasn't doing much. I elbowed him hard in the stomach and tried to roll within his grip(in other words when his arms loosened I wanted to roll within him so I would be facing him) when he loostened up a bit... but half way through he ended up tightening his grip again and rolled on top, during the roll his weight and my weight hitting the ground with my elbow did some damage. Hard ground is not very condusive to being on the bottom of ground fighting.

[J-Luck]

And to Greg... it's really up in the air but I'm gonna have to go with 60/40. A hard takedown/throw on a hard gound under the best circumstances will only hurt to a moderate degree and end up in a few bruises/cuts. Under the worst circumstances, it could end in multiple broken bones(including the neck or the skull), bad bruises, internal bleeding, large open wounds, and possibly death. A punch could be very devestating also. Or a quick flurry of them. Broken noses, cheekbones, jaws, or windpipes are possible. As far as stopping a fight, I think takedowns/throws are more effective because within a fight(most fights are from 1-120 seconds) one can recover from a hard punch and take out the other guy. It's not so easy to come back from a hard takedown.