a touchy subject

[fleetgunz]

Why do civilian companies offer former military signing bonuses to work for them? because combat arms guys get a ton of technical and leadership training. are capable of making snap decisions under difficult situations. and have the disipline to carry out their objectives especialy when mr. murph and his laws come along for the ride.military people also have a tremendous amout of responsiblity far sooner than civilian counter parts. military also have teamwork when leading or following. (there are some that are better than others but in general) also the attention to detail. you know like in the movies about white glove inspections and stuff from bootcamp? seems stupid but it teaches attention to detail this is important because a few turns the wrong way on say the dials on a mortar could kill a lot of guys. or say the enlisted guy that runs a nuke power plant on a sub or does the maintence on it. details can be a little important dont you think? think about this companies do...

[nutter]

What a load of one-sided rubbish mate.

[Troll Virus]

Why do civilian companies offer former military signing bonuses to work for them? because combat arms guys get a ton of technical and leadership training. are capable of making snap decisions under difficult situations. and have the disipline to carry out their objectives especialy when mr. murph and his laws come along for the ride.military people also have a tremendous amout of responsiblity far sooner than civilian counter parts. military also have teamwork when leading or following. (there are some that are better than others but in general) also the attention to detail. you know like in the movies about white glove inspections and stuff from bootcamp? seems stupid but it teaches attention to detail this is important because a few turns the wrong way on say the dials on a mortar could kill a lot of guys. or say the enlisted guy that runs a nuke power plant on a sub or does the maintence on it. details can be a little important dont you think? think about this companies do...

Good points, all taken on board, but that's not what's being discussed, ala 'initial' post in the thread

[bigred389]

Anybody with the slightest military training(even Air Force) will tell you instituationalization happens. Even civilian companies do some of it to instill a sense of "culture" into employees. The difference is the degree...like having Marines yell "kill" with every other step.

But when you analyze the facts, it's necessary. To paraphrase Grossman's work: Killing another person is not a "rational" act...it creates a lot of stress. To help our mildmannered average Joes overcome that stress requires some training, indoctrination.
The problem is that once you overcome the killing barrier, you're piling an incredible amount of stress on the soldiers...not letting them recover properly is what leads to PTSD.

[nutter]

Absolutely spot on mate. Military indoctrination is designed to prevent initative and rational acts in high stress situations innit. Added to this that many soldiers aren't all that bright, come from low-aspiring backgrounds and join up whilst still immature, and you have a potent mix of stupidity, desensitivity to dishing out violence and a lack of taking responsibility.

[treelizard]

"Over the years I have developed the notion that there is a definite connection between marksmanship and morality. A good shot is nearly always a good man, and conversely the bad guys usually cannot shoot for sour owl jowls. This proposition cannot be proven, of course, but I think it has to do with the fact that the essence of good marksmanship is self-control, and it seems pretty clear that self-control is the foundation of good morals. Hurray for our side!"

The original Greek word for sin means "missing the mark."

[bigred389]

Absolutely spot on mate. Military indoctrination is designed to prevent initative and rational acts in high stress situations innit. Added to this that many soldiers aren't all that bright, come from low-aspiring backgrounds and join up whilst still immature, and you have a potent mix of stupidity, desensitivity to dishing out violence and a lack of taking responsibility.

Err, no.

The indoctrination is to inoculate them against the common reaction of people who are attacked with deadly force...they lock up and freeze, exhibit submissive behavior, and hope to God the problem goes away.

Soldiers don't have the luxury of curling up into a ball and wishing the enemy away. They need to be able to match force with force.

[Troll Virus]

The problem is that once you overcome the killing barrier, you're piling an incredible amount of stress on the soldiers...not letting them recover properly is what leads to PTSD.

Do you have some kind of solution in mind?
De-briefing, re-programming etc ?

[bigred389]

Do you have some kind of solution in mind?
De-briefing, re-programming etc ?

I don't pretend to be an expert, but the solution prescribed by psychologists is debriefing. When you had a traumatic experience long long ago, that is pretty much what a psychologist does do to "fix" you up. The sooner after the experience, the better. And from what I hear from returning veterans, they've been good about that this time around.

In Vietnam, the problem was soldiers were pulled out as individuals, not as units, and then were released into the civilian world (a HOSTILE one at that after the "peace" movement got started) within a few days of leaving the combat zone.