empty hands vs. knife

[Garland]

This is a very well made video...some graphic bits...but overall, I think it addresses the issue in a way that'll make some of you remove your heads from the sand (or your assholes).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8884586003342147853

[SamuraiGuy]

First of all, those "gore" pictures used, I think were proven to be fake, I read this on the Atienza Kali forum I believe.

Second, this is the same person who did this video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7107762519414136368

Claiming that MMA is the ultimate self defense style, and that military or RBSD systems (particularly picking on Krav Maga) are useless in a real fight. Would you agree with that one.


I think the first video was okay.. but really... I could make a video were I said I tested 900 police officers, and taught them the jump spinning back kick to defend against knife attacks. 100% of them defended successfully, use the spinning back kick. And then not back it up with video evidence, show me the 85 officers failing and I'll take that as the truth. Text doesnt prove it to me. Thats my first problem with the video.

I thought the reactionary stuff was good, and it made sense, I posted that paul vunak video in this forum before, and I agree with alot of it, I really dont think there is much empty handed stuff you can do against a knife attack.


As for the second video I think it unfairly bashes alot of stuff, "Krav Maga sucks because they do this flimsy shit and never go 100% training", bullshit we went 100% when I did Krav. Also showing Mark "THE SMASHING MACHINE" Kerr, knock out one Krav Maga guy... thats just ridiculous, I'll show you a tae kwon doe guy knocking out a muay thai guy, I doubt Straight Blast Gym (I noticed alot of there footage was used) would say "oh shit, that must mean tae kwon doe is better than muay thai, and jump on that bandwagon.

I can show you a haymaker throwing streetfighter knock out a boxer, does that mean no experience makes you a better puncher than a boxer. The video I posted is just bull shit.

Sorry for somewhat hijacking your thread Garland, but as its the same people doing it, I thought it was relevant.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

I dont think the guy means MMA is the best for combat, but that it will beat other MA's that train in a rigid or "unalive" (i dont know what to call it) way. Kind of like how Taiji guys train just kidding =)i Its obvious that in a REAL combat or military situation that no matter how much MA or fighting xp you have, if you are unarmed and your attacker has a knife(or something sharp), you dont stand a chance. And if youre a soldier you should always be armed no matter what, so you wont even use any of your unarmed MA crippling moves. But i still think a gun is faster than a knife as long as its already out and pointed at somebody.

[Garland]

No...this is what the military should train for close quarters combat, sans firearms and grenades;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqdC-OJTm9M&search=pekiti

[darrianation]

Darren Laur was the one who came up those numbers of how many cops saw the knife prior to contact and how many didn't even know they were stabbed until the drill was over. This was done in one of his training sessions as a LE tactical trainer.

First rule of a knife defense, you have to see the knife. This is out standing, and true. As a paramedic I have seen hundreds of stabbings and I can tell you most folks (victims) never saw the knife.

Second rule a of knife defense get the hell out of dodge. If that isn’t possible get something between you and the knife like a large solid core door, a chair, etc.

The part where they were showing the gun draws…this is the tueller drill. It sates that an average person can close the distance of 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds. The averaged “trained” shooter takes 1.5 seconds to draw and to shoot 2 well placed shots. This is from an open carry position. What will a concealed carry position do to your time? Also, in my observations using timers I find that many folks are drawing and shooting (2 well placed shots) closer to the 1.8 second margin than the 1.5 (open carry). And from a concealed position (I carry just behind the hip point under a shirt…because I carry a knife forward of the hip point) my time is 1.9 seconds (constantly…I have done it faster on occasion).

Also, to add to matters, someone one from 30 feet can close that distance in just under two seconds. Something to think about! What I have found to offset this disadvantage is to move laterally as I draw or if the assailant is close, as in the bad breath range, is to aggress through the threat and then draw.

The point he was making about arm cuts is complete bull shit. I have never seen someone go into immediate medical shock from a laceration to the arm…maybe 30 minutes later but not 3 seconds. I have seen folks with nasty deep penetrating stabs and slices who could and in some cases did continue to fight. I have seen biceps and forearms totally filleted and they were still able to make tight fists. If someone stopped fighting or collapses after a knife wound to the arm it is most likely due to psychological shock but not medical shock (physiologic shock)…even with the artery severed.

And did you see that female officer’s stance when she was drawing? She was off balance and could have been easily pushed over.

[darrianation]

Second video, was a fun video to watch but did you notice the bad guys all stood around and held their knife arm out straight so the defender can do his magic? This is demonstration not real life, some of you understand this, but for the rest of you don’t confuse the two. Street energy (street speed) is not the same thing and many of these nice staged drills fall apart when the initial conditions change in the street.

Okay, these guys also had the knifer bull rushing in (this is realistic), however the fighter (defender) moved straight back. Have you ever been told in training to move straight back? No, the movement pattern would be laterally (if there is room to move off course). If there isn’t the room to move laterally, such as in a confined space scenario then we must take a dominate stance and aggress forward or hold our ground. Unfortunately there are no good answers to this.

There is also a perception from the videos that if you draw and shoot than you have eliminated the threat. Wrong! Folks don’t stop and fall to the ground dead just because they are shot. Even well placed shots may not immediately incapacitate them. Even fatal wounds may not immediately incapacitate them. Studies have shown that folks who have died from gun shot wounds (handgun) on average live 30 minutes after being shot. Folks have fought on even though they have been mortally wounded. Folks immediately falling to the ground dead or no longer posing a threat after being shot once or twice is a misconception we have from the movies.

Our goal is to eliminate the threat. That means we need to have an aggressive threat elimination policy. In other words, shoot him to the ground or shoot to slide lock, reload, and repeat if necessary.

[bigred389]

The point he was making about arm cuts is complete bull shit. I have never seen someone go into immediate medical shock from a laceration to the arm…maybe 30 minutes later but not 3 seconds. I have seen folks with nasty deep penetrating stabs and slices who could and in some cases did continue to fight. I have seen biceps and forearms totally filleted and they were still able to make tight fists. If someone stopped fighting or collapses after a knife wound to the arm it is most likely due to psychological shock but not medical shock (physiologic shock)…even with the artery severed.

While I do believe you're right about arm cuts, at the very least I think the knifer is just simply breaking you down. Even if he doesn't kill you, he's drawing blood, and probably screwing with the biomechanics. And if he's trained, or gets lucky, he'll start catching your vital links like tendons and muscles to totally break you down.

I don't think it'd put the guy away, but you'd at least be taking away his tools...i dunno, does it make sense?

[darrianation]

If you are talking from the knifer's perspective...I would hit what ever is available (but I would not intentionally target the arms I might shear them to make him let go of me in a grapple or clinch situation otherwise I am going for gold), so, in essence as far as that perspective goes you are correct. I was just pointing out some inaccuracies about what he was saying.

However, in a knife fight, unless your gun is out already or you seen the knife and were able to run away, etc, and your only choice was to engage the knifer with empty hands (worst case scenario) you will most likely get cut. Folks need to know that being cut does not necessarily mean they will drop dead in 3 seconds (or be incapacitated). They should be focused on keeping in the fight (eliminating the threat) rather than on their wounds. They can keep on fighting and "win".

[bigred389]

If you are talking from the knifer's perspective...I would hit what ever is available (but I would not intentionally target the arms I might shear them to make him let go of me in a grapple or clinch situation otherwise I am going for gold), so, in essence as far as that perspective goes you are correct. I was just pointing out some inaccuracies about what he was saying.

However, in a knife fight, unless your gun is out already or you seen the knife and were able to run away, etc, and your only choice was to engage the knifer with empty hands (worst case scenario) you will most likely get cut. Folks need to know that being cut does not necessarily mean they will drop dead in 3 seconds (or be incapacitated). They should be focused on keeping in the fight (eliminating the threat) rather than on their wounds. They can keep on fighting and "win".

OK I read you.

Just out of curiosity then, what is your opinion on kali's knife fighting system? I mean a lot of what we do in kali involves what I'd call "aggressively" parry the strike, ie deflect a stab with your OWN knife, THEN stick the other knife into the gut. That sorta thing. We're sorta training to be able to deliver two strikes to different areas(here one vital for living, one vital for wielding a weapon). Or is that what you meant by "go for the gold?"

And I agree with you on focusing on the fight even when cut. Have you ever read "On Combat?" One of the case studies was a female off duty cop in LA who was literally shot in the heart, but returned fire to kill and drive off her attackers. She was declared dead for an hour before the ER brought her back from the dead...and she went back to duty.
Unbelievable what people can do when they have the drive to do it.

[darrianation]

bigred389,

Kali has some good things (I studied it for three years) but just like everything else you have to take it for what its worth.

In a more tactical sense being the aggressor is far better than being the agressee (I know that’s not a word but it should be). I realize there will be times when we will have to react, such as parry his knife thrust but then we want to take control of the situation from here and we need to keep things simple, robust and as straight forward as possible. This may mean I shove him hard backwards into a wall or push the guy away to make enough room to go for my gun, or other weapon, or pick the metal stool, etc.

My knife fighting philosophy (and method) can be taught in one day…

The first thing to know in a knife defense is….you have to know your in a knife fight. In our generic force-options logic we ask our selves this question “Can I out run him? Yes---Run. No---Preempt if possible, counter attack if not. So, our first part of the knife defense is once again GET OF THE X!

My knife fighting method is simple. No fancy grips, I use only one grip rather holding the blade in the forward or reverse position. And that is the “convulsive” grip. I don’t care who you are or how good you are with the knife. When you’re in the shit for real you are gripping that knife in a death vice type grip. So, why not just train with it. I have two methods or positions which I hold the knife.

1. My preferred method is the reverse grip edge in or pikal. It has only two basic strikes forehand and backhand (of course yours may be different and that’s fine). I like it because it is a quick and powerful thrusting platform that works with the curve of the blade and the sharp-blade side or in other words, the arc-motion and the blade design work together (I also like daggers). It simply goes deeper. I also like it because if someone is grabbing me I can shear the flesh off the offending appendage.

2. The forward grip/position (edge down-although I have been experimenting with edge up and I am liking it a lot.). Here I use it like a boxer i.e. jab, hook, uppercut, and basic slashing angles 1, 2, 3, 4…as well as striking with the butt.

I prefer the fixed blade because it requires no manipulation to open it. Also, it can be drawn directly into the pikal. The folders are handy but require greater skill and training and they open into the forward grip/position. You must think about how you would get to your knife while tangled up with a strong and aggressive opponent.

Other than that my methods is straight forward, Forward-drive while thrusting as hard and as fast as possible---sprinting forward thrusting stabbing and hacking away. And don’t forget you can still hit with your off hand as well as other nasties.

That's it not much to it but it is simple, robust, and functional.

*The number one most important skill is accessing your weapon under aggress.
*Just remember, just because he (or you for that matter) has a knife in his hand doesn’t mean he can’t punch, gouge, or claw with other or switch hands or headbutt or bite for that matter.

I realize by telling you my method it opens me up to be picked apart, but you have to remember this is my personal fighting method and as such it is not built around the knife nor is it my primary weapon, and this is just the general framework of what I do, There is still plenty of room for manipulation and personalization while staying within the framework here. Chances are it would look somewhat different if it was the primary platform I use.

[EmptyneSs]

i remember hearing about a story of a mma guy arouund here who was a bouncer....im not sure if it was paul valerans or someone else......but he got in some situation were an attacker shot him like 4-5 times, and he was still able to beat the shit out of the attacker and get help.

[Adept]

Empty hand vs the knife...hmm yeah uh I'm going to have to say RUN.

I remember Paul Vunak doing some knife self defense scenario with a marker. If anyone thinks they can deter a knife wielding maniac, get a friend of yours and tell him to mark you as many times as possible within 10 seconds while trying to disarm him. I got marked so many times lol.

But seriously, like Darrianation said before, when fighting an armed (melee) opponent, grab whatever nearby object you can find as a weapon if running away isn't an option.

[bigred389]

bigred389,

Kali has some good things (I studied it for three years) but just like everything else you have to take it for what its worth.

In a more tactical sense being the aggressor is far better than being the agressee (I know that’s not a word but it should be). I realize there will be times when we will have to react, such as parry his knife thrust but then we want to take control of the situation from here and we need to keep things simple, robust and as straight forward as possible. This may mean I shove him hard backwards into a wall or push the guy away to make enough room to go for my gun, or other weapon, or pick the metal stool, etc.

First off, a disclaimer if you will: take what follows for what it's worth...absolutely nothing.
It's just theorizing, I haven't been in a no $hit somebody's gonna kill me situation, I just hope some good comes out of thinking before it might/will happen.

My main point in bringing up counter offensives is that if the opponent is not a trained knife fighter, and you are, and you can attain equal positioning off the start, I feel knowing kali concepts can be a useful platform to build up a solid way to end the engagement very quickly.
I've noticed you can pretty much break everything down into vertical slashes, horizontal slashes, a diagonal slash, or a simple stab. That's about it.

I believe(dangerous word from a novice ) you can drill standard responses, not forgetting of course to train with ambidextrous opponents, to all of the sequences you will see. Speed it up, make it more random, bring out the training knives and go "all out." But I think the standard responses you can pull from kali are an excellent foundation if you really just must engage in a no$hit knifefight.

My knife fighting philosophy (and method) can be taught in one day…

The first thing to know in a knife defense is….you have to know your in a knife fight. In our generic force-options logic we ask our selves this question “Can I out run him? Yes---Run. No---Preempt if possible, counter attack if not. So, our first part of the knife defense is once again GET OF THE X!

Amen.

I prefer the fixed blade because it requires no manipulation to open it. Also, it can be drawn directly into the pikal. The folders are handy but require greater skill and training and they open into the forward grip/position. You must think about how you would get to your knife while tangled up with a strong and aggressive opponent.

I completely agree on the fixed blades, however, I think awareness is most important here. I mean awareness almost taken to the point of paranoia. Make sure all strangers maintain their distance, when people close, get ready, etc.
My main objection to the arguments on "strong aggressive" opponents is why the hell are you letting them get that close anyway? A strong aggressive opponent will LOOK strong and aggressive. If I see a 60 year old grandmother pass me by at night where I live, I relax. I see 2 big guys closing in, I tense up and get ready. Why not stay alert and gauge the threats?
I dunno, maybe I'm probably just talking out of my ass...

Other than that my methods is straight forward, Forward-drive while thrusting as hard and as fast as possible---sprinting forward thrusting stabbing and hacking away. And don’t forget you can still hit with your off hand as well as other nasties.

That's it not much to it but it is simple, robust, and functional.

It seems like you're risking/gambling on being quicker/better with your offense. I mean it only takes a lucky stab by the other guy doesn't it? I notice this is a trend across ALL striking arts...some people just train to the point where they can easily see/anticipate and react accordingly/properly.

I try to train to think of every action as, if nothing else, a setup for a followup attack. Even if your first attack doesn't end it, you're constantly working on breaking the enemy's "tools", whether by cutting his knife arm to shreds, or trying to catch a bit of his face as you slip to the outside...and of course as you bring down the arm if you're in reverse grip you can always stab him in the gut pretty easily. If he won't let you do that, swing out and take some of his arm with you. I realize it's all academic and much more difficult to do on the fly, but I think it is possible to eventually get to the point where you can react appropriately...

I realize by telling you my method it opens me up to be picked apart, but you have to remember this is my personal fighting method and as such it is not built around the knife nor is it my primary weapon, and this is just the general framework of what I do, There is still plenty of room for manipulation and personalization while staying within the framework here. Chances are it would look somewhat different if it was the primary platform I use.

Hey, I'm sure you're far more experienced than I am with real life-threatening situations. Just trying to get as much out of the discussion as I can.

I see PLENTY of problems with my "system" as it is anyway. It relies very heavily on training realistically in a very specialized field. If you screw up the training, it could get you killed quite easily. And it'll take a lot more practice before I'd be willing to field test it. Assuming I'd want to field test in the FIRST place.
I mean you'd have to be training over and over until this stuff becomes part of your "animal midbrain" and you stop having to think about it. But of course, if you train it wrong, you'll also perform wrong...
Just my thoughts on the subject.

[darrianation]

Empty hand vs the knife...hmm yeah uh I'm going to have to say RUN.

I remember Paul Vunak doing some knife self defense scenario with a marker. If anyone thinks they can deter a knife wielding maniac, get a friend of yours and tell him to mark you as many times as possible within 10 seconds while trying to disarm him. I got marked so many times lol.

But seriously, like Darrianation said before, when fighting an armed (melee) opponent, grab whatever nearby object you can find as a weapon if running away isn't an option.

This is my standard advaice I tell people when we are talking about unarmed defenses against the knife.

The best advice I have for you here is get the strongest, meanest, and most aggressive guy in the gym, hand him a trainer and have him come at you like a rabid wolverine on steroids, bulling, swinging, thrusting, slashing, and hacking. If you can find a way to CONSISTENTLY (key point) disarm him that your average students, who may not have the same attributes that you do, can use with repeated success then you have a hellova unarmed knife defense platform. We often use chalked training knives for this so practitioners can see where and how many times they were stabbed/cut. Otherwise it is easy to deny to ourselves where and how many or even if you were stabbed at all. This is usually an eye opener for the students.

Just remember, just because he has a knife in his hand doesn’t mean he can’t punch, gouge, or claw with other or switch hands or headbutt or bite for that matter.

And yes, I don't care who you are...you get stabbed.

We find the same sort of thing doing force on force with sims and airsoft...folks get shot and they get shot a lot.

All are good examples of why avoidance is so important.

[darrianation]

bigred389,

First let me tell you a little secret…

The gun is my primary weapon…I have a CCW and I carry all the time. I probably shouldn’t tell you this but I also carry in the non-permissive environment. My HTH skills are my primary platform for accessing my weapons (Gun). My knife is a backup to the gun. If I am not carrying my gun (rare) then my knife becomes my primary weapon.

I do not get into fights I will run first or apologize, I will tell him to “STOP” don’t come any closer, or back the **** up, I will call the police on my cell phone, etc. If those options fail or he refuses to comply I will draw my weapon. If I am attacked outright I will punch, pound, bite, gouge, headbutt, knee, elbow, slap, etc, with as much determined aggressive ferocity as I can muster (whatever it takes), and push/shove him away and draw my weapon. If he should continue his advance towards me and refuses the command to “STOP” (as I try to maneuver away) he will be shot. If I am suddenly ambushed…this is a lethal force situation. Any 2 (or more) on ones is a lethal force situation. Anytime someone has a weapon it is a lethal force situation, etc.

Also, I keep a small canister of pepper spray on my keychain a long with a cromtec stinger. I have used the OC spray on three occasions when I could see the other guy was unarmed as he approached. All three times I bladed it behind my leg and as they got within range (after being warned to keep thier distance) I doused them in the eyes and it worked all three times and I either walked away or drove away without ever having to punch them or draw my gun (of coarse I was ready to step it up if the OC spray failed to have the intended effects). I also kept OC spray on me in Iraq where I used it on at least 10 occasions (to get folks to comply with my orders).

I completely agree on the fixed blades, however, I think awareness is most important here. I mean awareness almost taken to the point of paranoia. Make sure all strangers maintain their distance, when people close, get ready, etc.
My main objection to the arguments on "strong aggressive" opponents is why the hell are you letting them get that close anyway? A strong aggressive opponent will LOOK strong and aggressive. If I see a 60 year old grandmother pass me by at night where I live, I relax. I see 2 big guys closing in, I tense up and get ready. Why not stay alert and gauge the threats?

Yes, it is always good to maintain an “reactionary gap” and challenge folks who get to close…”excuse me sir but can you please keep your distance” or “stop, don’t come any closer” or “back the **** up” etc, as you keep moving.

But the reality is this may work a 100 times but the 101st time it may be an ambush or some other situation that you could not account for in your pre-fight strategies. The reality is anyone can be ambushed or gotten too if the timing and conditions are right. Of course certain patterns can set off our alarms…then we can ready ourselves with increased vigilance (keeping your eye on the potential threat or direction of the threat, check your perimeter, asses for accomplices, check your six, look for alternate routes, etc), movement (angle away from the direction of the potential threat), and readying a weapon (palm it, hide under your coat or under a package or magazine, hold it while in your pocket, blade it behind your leg, etc…don’t brandish it). And always challenge him while looking for accomplices coming up from the opposite side. And always keep moving, do not stop to talk. Look at his hands, belt line, and pockets for weapons. If his hands are in his pockets or behind him (you cannot see his hands) you can say “what’s in you hands” (this works better than asking “ show me your hands)? If he asks for a smoke (change-money, the time, etc) say “sorry I can’t help you” and keep moving. Always protect your personal space.

It is also very important when performing verbal challenges to back it up with tone and body language. Be assertive and “command” don’t just simply ask “BACK OFF NOW”. Say it like you mean it.

You may try being polite at first (if he is still at a safe distance) “Sir, can you please keep your distance”. But if he keeps moving forward, “Stop, don’t come any closer”. Or back the **** up now”. Etc. If he keeps moving forward he may get a can of OC in his face or worse.

It seems like you're risking/gambling on being quicker/better with your offense. I mean it only takes a lucky stab by the other guy doesn't it? I notice this is a trend across ALL striking arts...some people just train to the point where they can easily see/anticipate and react accordingly/properly.

I try to train to think of every action as, if nothing else, a setup for a followup attack. Even if your first attack doesn't end it, you're constantly working on breaking the enemy's "tools", whether by cutting his knife arm to shreds, or trying to catch a bit of his face as you slip to the outside...and of course as you bring down the arm if you're in reverse grip you can always stab him in the gut pretty easily. If he won't let you do that, swing out and take some of his arm with you. I realize it's all academic and much more difficult to do on the fly, but I think it is possible to eventually get to the point where you can react appropriately...

I think you are confusing knife fighting with knife dueling…they are not the same thing. Remember, if I see his weapon I am going for my gun not my knife. And to be perfectly truthful knife on knife fights are extremely rare in the real world (they mostly happen in the training gym not the streets).

Remember this… a tip from the tactical trades. The longer you stay on the X the likely hood of you being killed increases. If the threat is still at a distance beyond the bad breath range, move laterally (to the 3 o’clock maybe) draw weapon as you move to cover. If the threat is in the bad breath range, move forward and aggress through the threat.

Also, it seems to me you are looking at fights in the way most folks spar...as a symmetrical exercise. In the ideal combative situation only one guy attacks and the other guy either stands their getting hit or tries to defend himself (reactive)…what I am saying here is that we want to take control “act” sooner and act aggressively in the encounter to gain immediate dominance and force the other guy into a reactive roll (action is faster than reaction, it's a bitch but it's true). What we want is to commit ourselves to an all out aggressive “asymmetrical” assault on the other guy. That means at the point where we are locked up like two freight train smashing into each other (that is how it really is) I am not trying to guess or asses what he is doing because I am ahead of him on the action time-combat curve and he is trying to figure out what I am doing as he falls further and further behind. By the time he figures it out the fight is over. He is either down and no longer a threat or he is laying there looking up at the muzzle of my Glock staring down on him.

Initiative:

The initiative is the power and ability to begin and follow through, with dynamic tenacity and determination, a plan or task to completion. Seize, retain, and exploit the initiative. In the preemptive dominance model we use speed, surprise and violence of action and the flexible use of the forward drive to overwhelm our opponent’s psychology. In the reactive dominance model (which is the most likely model in self-defense) we seek to aggressively reestablish the initiative.

Key points to the combat initiative:

1. Owning the immediate moments between threat recognition and tactical superiority.
2. Delivering a determined and aggressive all out “asymmetrical” assault on your opponent.
3. Putting up an effective offensive before being put out, killed, or overwhelmed.
4. Get there first with the most - never relinquish the offensive once the fight has begun, take your turn “first” and don’t give it back.
5. If all else fails placing yourself in a “first strike capability” is what we call the combat initiative.

Does that make any sense?

Hey, I'm sure you're far more experienced than I am with real life-threatening situations. Just trying to get as much out of the discussion as I can.

I see PLENTY of problems with my "system" as it is anyway. It relies very heavily on training realistically in a very specialized field. If you screw up the training, it could get you killed quite easily. And it'll take a lot more practice before I'd be willing to field test it. Assuming I'd want to field test in the FIRST place.
I mean you'd have to be training over and over until this stuff becomes part of your "animal midbrain" and you stop having to think about it. But of course, if you train it wrong, you'll also perform wrong...
Just my thoughts on the subject.

Pray that you’ll never have the opportunity to field test it.

We may train our whole lives for the “all or nothing event” that never happens but I maintain it is better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it.