The Brutality of it...

[bOoRadley]

I am new to the world of "Urban Street Combatives" coming from a BJJ and Boxing background and I am feeling a little wierded out buy the ferocious violence and brutality of what I'm now learning. The training is top notch and there is not an ounce of ego or actual violence in the class it's the things I'm learning, finger breaking, throat crushing, eye gouging, etc...it makes everything I've studied before seem like a game.

I'm by no means a squeamish person but for some reason I was just a little uncomfortable with it at first and I was wondering if anyone else experienced this?

[kingoftheforest]

It's a pretty different world alright. There is honor in sports like Boxing, BJJ, etc because the participants are athletes - not "fighters." Real-world fighting is what it is - a way to keep yourself alive by injuring or killing another person. As such, it's a colossal responsibility for teacher and student alike. You will learn things that are neccesarily brutal, because they are intended to inflict maximal damage in a life and death situation. It's good that you feel a little squeamish about the tools you're learning; it means your moral compass works. I'd strongly suggest making your peace with acting violently when or if the time ever comes that violent action is the only answer - but at the same time, I'd encourage you to keep a strong fix on that moral compass at all times in both training and life, and never go farther than you have to. Remember, it's all about coming out alive - not about destroying the other man.

Wow for the most part I have to agree with Mike.
I don't know if he was getting at this...if he was cool....but when you learn combatives understand that if "it" hits the fan you must disregaurd any care for your attackers well being. If you have to fight like you train against a person it better be because you really had to. Hesitation in real life SD situation can and will get you killed.

Like the Brewski said....if you gotta do it, but if you don't please make sure you understand the diffrence. otherwise good luck with your training.

[stabbychick]

.............................

[jubaji]

I'm by no means a squeamish person but for some reason I was just a little uncomfortable with it at first and I was wondering if anyone else experienced this?

What the hell are you squeamish about if there was "not an ounce of actual violence in the class"?

[SamuraiGuy]

Okay before I get boo'ed out of the thread by everyone... read the whole post first.

I understand from your BJJ bashing post (and thats what it was) in the MMA forum, that you dont do MMA anymore.

Well regardless of what they teach you, or how applicable it is to fighting on the street, they will teach you at least one thing, how to hit, and how to hit people.

If your sparring MMA, or just sparring in general, and its at 80-100% your going to get hit, and your going to have to hit the person, in the face, HARD.

Specifically the ground and pound, people have a trouble with, repeatedly punching someones head in while they are in a inferior position. This helps you get over mental blocks extremely well. Maybe stabbing someone is different, than hitting someone. But it still takes some intent to maul someone who is in a much inferior position, never mind your friend. So if it at least helps you get over these "beating to death" mental blocks. Than good for it.

*Ducks behind the anti-flame wall*

[darrianation]

One of the things I have learned over the years regardless of background is learn to hit and learn to hit sooner rather than later, and learn to hit hard with full emotional commitment and bad intent. Rather it's your fist, your knife, a stick, or a gun...shut the **** up and hit em' already.

[BoarSpear]

I'm by no means a squeamish person but for some reason I was just a little uncomfortable with it at first and I was wondering if anyone else experienced this?

Welcome to the world of combatives. It isnt unusual at all to see someone get physically sick from focusing on a technique, while actual violence isnt usually high, intent and focus can be near 100 percent. While training soldiers and Leo's I have had students turn green and vomit, or become so shaken they have to sit down. Usually the more intense the student and the more real life experience they have had the more likely this is to happen. Teach a man who has survived an edged weapon assault and you will probably see someone pay extreme attention! Sometimes the realization of what could have happened last time or the next is more than their psyche was prepared to absorb. This is often what keeps people out of combatives is the realization of what may be called for to survive. Its also the very reason Rex Applegate said the most important H2h training a soldier could recieve was edged weapon because of the effect on the pysche and the nearly instantaneous "trance state" it induces.

[jubaji]

Not to rain on a chance at you starting a perfectly good argument, jub, but I think he's saying that no one is actually trying to hurt each other in class, but that the techniques are designed for that purpose.

I know, I'm just wondering what is so...'shocking' about it if its not actually happening. I find it 'shocking' when some big ol' sumagun punches me in the head, not when someone talks about squishing my eyeball.

[BoarSpear]

Okay before I get boo'ed out of the thread by everyone... read the whole post first.

I understand from your BJJ bashing post (and thats what it was) in the MMA forum, that you dont do MMA anymore.

Well regardless of what they teach you, or how applicable it is to fighting on the street, they will teach you at least one thing, how to hit, and how to hit people.

If your sparring MMA, or just sparring in general, and its at 80-100% your going to get hit, and your going to have to hit the person, in the face, HARD.

Specifically the ground and pound, people have a trouble with, repeatedly punching someones head in while they are in a inferior position. This helps you get over mental blocks extremely well. Maybe stabbing someone is different, than hitting someone. But it still takes some intent to maul someone who is in a much inferior position, never mind your friend. So if it at least helps you get over these "beating to death" mental blocks. Than good for it.

*Ducks behind the anti-flame wall*

Good points SG!! During WW2 studies of martial arts styles from around the globe were heavily investigated by the allies, during this study the Navy coined several "V" programs to research what would help build stronger soldiers, it was found that teaching CHILDREN to play football, wrestle and box built mentally and physically strong enough people that by the time they reached adulthood they would make good soldiers and be able to absorb the combatives training, it was a fantastic program that my family follows to this day. Althought the government is also aware of this (it was their study) and thats why you see them restricting the childrens play in school, it doesnt make good sheeple.

[darrianation]

I think most of us can agree on...in combatives violence is a key component. We have to muster within ourselves the will and determination and carry out with tenacity a full-out brutal assault on the other guy with the intent to eliminate his mobility and capability by the fastest most efficient means possible.

This may mean we continue our asymmetrical full-throttle assault until we are clear (safely far away from the threat) or we are standing there looking down at our opponent who no longer posses the capability of hurting us.

A hard pill for some folks to swallow.

[darrianation]

The way I look at it, is if I get into a fight someone is going to get hurt badly or even killed. I would rather loose face by apologizing or running away (if those options are available to me) than fight.

I avoid the situation, people, places, etc, that puts me into a higher risk category if I can. If I cannot avoid an attack and my OC spray fails to have it's desired effect or it is not an option, or the situation calls for more, one (or more) of us is going to the hospital or morgue. I personally would rather start high on the force scale and have to ramp down than start low and have to catch up. One of the things that I have found to be true is “the one who is willing to escalate the violence the furthest the fastest will most likely be the winner.

For me the risks of loosing are to high. I think this is a testament to serious and hard training, the model of training, and the wiliness to do what it takes to win…but it is also a testament to the importance of keeping yourself out of the fight in the first place (avoidance).

[treelizard]

I wonder if it would help people in urban street combatives if they were shown photographs of what some of the bad guys do to their victims.

[bOoRadley]

I wasn't being totally clear when I said it "weirded me out" and that I was "uncomfortable" with it so I'll elaborate...the punching, kneeing, kicking, head butting, throwing someone on their head, that kind of thing doesn't bother me at all it just makes me flinch a little to think of putting my knee on someones throat and crushing it, it makes me wince to think about snapping fingers and popping joints and putting my thumbs in someones eyes. I don't know, I guess I'm cursed with a good imagination...I can vividly picture how these things would feel, I can hear the snap of the bones or the gasping bloody gurgle of someone with a crushed larynx trying to draw a breath. It's not like I'm a sissy and I have to run to the bathroom and cry, it just kinda of gives me the heebeejeebies to imagine doing that to someone.


The instructors where I study try to instill in us the idea that we should avoid physical altercations at all cost, at the expense of our ego, pride etc...we're told to presume that anytime someone is attempting to engage us in a fight that they are armed and not alone. We're also taught that our greatest tools or weapons in our arsenal are "awareness & intuition". I like this philosophy and I don't think I would continue with it if there wasn't this kind of attitude at the club. I find it a welcome change from the machismo of the BJJ and Boxing crowds I used to study with and that's why I taunt them in the BJJ forum...they think there invincible and, I know I'm generalizing, for the most part are just a bunch of Spike TV watching goons...sorry but it's a fact.

[treelizard]

Yeah, feeling weird about it is normal. It just means you're human. Congratulations, as a lot of people have lost that humanity. Now get over it and stop sympathizing with your attacker.

And by the way, many of the BJJ guys I know are not macho at all and are some of the nicest guys I've ever met...and there are plenty of "combatives" people that are also assholes. Your generalization is not a "fact."

[jubaji]

for whatever its worth...

I don't know, I guess I'm cursed with a good imagination...I can vividly picture how these things would feel, I can hear the snap of the bones or the gasping bloody gurgle of someone with a crushed larynx trying to draw a breath. .

You should keep in mind that the fact that you are speaking of "imagination" is a key distinction between what you are studying now and what you were previously studying.