Some British Combatives

[WildWest.]

Yeah, I'm a bit nervous abouit training those head manipulations. To me it is best to shred/manipulate it enough to disorient the guy enough to get a big shot in on him. But to use it in this way looks pretty dangerous to your training partners!

As for his slap to the jaw area? I don't think he specifically aims for any particular target, mnore the general area.

I'm not overly familiar with the "shred" although I did briefly check out a previous link you posted to a website where the key self defence tool was a move called the "shredder". It looked like some sort of mix between ripping, eye gouging, fish hooking, mincemeat sort of thing. Can you elaborate?

[Thai Bri]

Its difficult to put into words.

Think about this. If you fill a bath with iced water, and have a shower curtain dangle into it from above....... imagine what would happen if you threw a sleeping cat into the bath?

That thing would shred itself all the way up the shower curtain.

Thats about the best way I can describe it!

[WildWest.]

Ouch. Sounds pretty awesome though and done with the same sort aggressiveness as the cat, I can imagine it being a pretty effective self defence tool. How do you train it without ripping your training partners into pieces?

[Thai Bri]

That is one of the bones of contention. Here goes.

Like many fighting methods not bound by any rules, the training has to be built around replicating reality. Done well? This can be an excellent method. Done badly? It produces cack.

With shredding they have a few variations. One includes the use of the "patrial" shred, which is like head manipulations AND windscreen washing of the face with the fingers. This is still pretty disorienting for the shredded party, and is a version thast I have used for real against low level threats.

Another variation involves the use of head gear with a full face plastic visor. Here youi can shred away at the "face" to your hearts content but, of course, the shredded person feels nothing but the head manipulation. So they "react" as they feel they would if it were being done for real.

It is here that problems MAY arise. If your training partner falls over too easily then, in my view, you get a skewered view of how effective your actions are. You can get over confident.

I do not rate the shredder as highly as I used too, though still do rate it highly. But it relies on "passing the flinch response", and this is difficult to do to those people so hyped up and strong that they don't flinch.

Think of CS gas for example. Some people can fight through it (though rare). In my view the Shredder is like that.

But it is still a great tool and well worth adding to your arsenal.

[WildWest.]

OK. Sounds cool. I think that was a pretty good description considering I haven't seen a video clip of the Shredder. I presume it doesn't take too long to learn but, nevertheless, will take a few training sessions to add it to your arsenal? Is it effective at getting someone off their feet and onto the ground so they can be restrained?? It sounds like it would be.

How your train it does sound difficult without the correct protective gear, but seeing as I already have a bit of head manipulation experience then I guess I can think about adding ripping movements of the face with my fingers and hands. Maybe a bit if visualisation might be instore if we don't have any head protection!?

As a side note/question Bri, in your experience as a cop, have you found ground fighting skills such as BJJ and wrestling to be of any huge advantage? I work in airport security myself and have often wondered, despite the obvious value in looking at combat in a different way, about whether it is worth getting into seriously. Thanks

[Thai Bri]

I think the fundamentals of grappling are important - the basic positions etc. But only so that you can do enough to get up if you were inadvertently taken there.

The danger is getting too into the grappling game, where you go into it in too much depth.

[WildWest.]

This is something I've thought about myself. I gave bjj a go a few weeks ago and found myself immediately wanting to break the rules of the sport side of it i.e. grabbing fingers, twisting heads and that was without strikes.

Although people might say that a bjj person would just use the same sorts of weapons in a fight, and they might, I'm a little skeptical because I believe to fight dirty you need to train dirty and when you are wrestling under pressure if you aren't looking for fingers to break, eyes to shred or necks to twist (to name a few options) then are you going to automatically go for them in a real fight?? I'm not sure. This is the problem with sport MA's....it's not a big problem but one to remember if your reason for doing MA's is self defence. When I do MT I look at how I can extend a technique or movement to involve some of the more dirtier Hapkido stuff I've learnt. I think changing your state of mind from rule dominated sport MA thinking to backs to wall self defence thinking is an important part of training. I hope I explained myself ok, what do you think?

[Thai Bri]

Becaue you cannot train by having an all out no rules fight, we have to work between two extremes.

At one end we could train "super deadly (lol)" moves, but cannot train those in an "alive" fashion. At the other end of the scale we can train the effective but not "deadly" moves in an alive fashion......

The problem with McDojo arts is that they end up training the non deadly moves in a non alive fashion! Work that one out!

There are overlaps of course. BJJ etc. train strangles for example and, of course, they are deadly if taken to the point of death being caused..... but you know what I mean.

Its all about setting your goals and then working towards acheiving them. If your goal is to win one on one unarmed competitions in a ring, then MMA/BJJ is the way to go. If youre goal is to get home safe no matter what? Then plenty "soft skills" and some brutal hard skills is the way to go.

Now people at the "alive" end, and people at the "self protection" end can get caught up in the arguments about how best to progress. But they're missing the point. We should be looking for ways to learn from each other, not prove who's way is best.

[WildWest.]

While I love watching K1 and MMA competitions, my personal interest in getting into the ring is minimal. Essentially I'm not a fighter, but I have defended myself several times albeit on the rugby field when I used to play!!

I quite like the MMA style of sparring and I intend to try and add a dimension of it into Hapkido when I teach it. I already have a pretty good grasp of MT sparring, been doing it for 10 years, but want to train more reality based self defence as that is what Hapkido is supposed to be about. And it is but, awhile we do some great things and learn some killer techniques, I think we need to train them under a bit more pressure. I enjoy learning escapes, locking techniques and the like but I want to combine them more with strikes to vital points as I feel we don't do that enough. My instructor agrees but we just don't have the equipment eg, fingerless gloves, body protection etc in order to do it properly. We do the random attack thing though and that's very beneficial and some sparring but I get some great sparring at MT anyway.

We also have a fairly small club that relies on membership to stay afloat so if we train too hard some of the more "softer" students will not come back. I know I know fucking pussies but such is life. I still get some great "alive" type training with the instructor as well as some other guys at the club so all is not lost.

Like I said earlier I believe you need to train yourself to actually do eye attacks, throat strikes, finger breaks and other nasty things when you train. While it's very hard to do it even with good protective equipment I have found that you can still train them safely.

I think I will need to experiment a lot and learn from those with plenty of experience in order to find what I'm looking for. How do you currently train??

[Thai Bri]

Hi mate, I have thre main arenas for training.

1 - Solo in my own "garage gym." Its pretty well equipped, with a selection of weights and striking bags etc. I aim for some skill work, and some hard fitness work.

2 - Seminars. I get out and about when I can, and train mostly with this guy http://www.corecombatives.com/

He hits harder than anyone I have ever known, and I am part way through his instructor class. He's 200 miles away from me though, so getting there is difficult.

3 - Class. I am qualified to teach under a couple or organisations, and I train a small class once per week. Training includes lots of pad work, along with some full on fighting using protective equipment (head gear and gloves).

Let me tell you, when the fists are really flying at you, 99% of martial arts techniques are useless. To me its about perfecting a small number of nasty strikes, and then blasting away at the enemy will all out aggression.

Look at the millions of people training with partners who punch, and then stand momentarily still whilst they apply their block, lock or whatever.

But, in a real go, people don't punch and freeze. They punch and then punch and then punch!

Because you cannot train by having an all out fight, people have had to interpret a real fight, and design training that will, hopefully, carry over into a real go. But the vast majority have got it very wrong. Compliancy has become much too prevelant, and the vast majority are training against attacks that never hapen for real, and give an appalling misapprehension of their current capabilities.

Sorry to ramble!

Anyway, where are you based? I may be able to hook you up with some good people.

[WildWest.]

I'm based in New Zealand. I don't think you can get further away from the UK aside from Antartica. I have lived in London before (2 & 1/2 yrs) so appreciate your job as a cop in the UK, I met some interesting/nasty characters in that city.

I agree with you 100% about when you are in a fight and the fists are flying, let me see you try that spinning kick now. This is why I could never quit MT, the practical applications of such a style are too valuable. I know other styles train in similar ways, but I love using quick, short punches, elbows, knees and the quick powerful leg kicks. And you learn so much when sparring and getting pummeled by someone who is essentially non-compliant.

Hapkido has a lot of techniques used by military organisations but sometimes there is too much traditional bullshit. The instructor knows this too as he hates patterns and when he teaches a technique he will sometimes say "this won't work for real". Unfortunately he has to teach it because we get graded on them. Fortunately I can spend more time on the more practical things though being one of the senior students. The principle of the art is pretty sound which is why I like it. It just needs to be trained more effectively, and with my brother just graduating from police college, I will have someone to discuss real life scenarios with.

I like your belief on mastering a few strong techniques and blasting away should you get into a fight. I assume you are believer in pre-emptive striking too? I am, but everytime I say it people like to say "you can't do that as you are a BB so must only defend yourself". Fucking bollocks I say. If you wait to get hit chances are you will get hit. Every situation is different though.

So this Mick Coup hits pretty hard? What are his strongest techniques? I had a good look at the website, this C2 stuff sounds pretty awesome. The guy who trains our SAS does something very similar but he lives at the bottom of the South Island. I would love to attend a seminar involving someone from this area of expertise. I'm sure I will one day. What sort of techniques etc does C2 promote?? or is it more personal preference??

I would like to have my own garage gym or whatever. In a couple of years I will have one but for now I am slowly building up a collection of pads and bags for me to train with other people. I'm assuming you don't stick to any formalised MA style framework but rather teach only the things that work according to your experiences?? What sort of pad techniques do you teach?? Being an advocate for MT, do you teach similar types of techniques??

I know I ramble a bit and ask a lot of questions but I want to teach in the future and am passionate about MA's and self defence. I don't want to teach shit or be the instructor of a Mcdojo.

[Thai Bri]

Sorry, I thought you were in the UK. I know no-one in NZ.

Mick Coup hits like a truck. I know phrases like that are used alot, and people have said that about me. But he is in a different league.

He is one of the few people who has researched genuine science in order to improve the force he can generate. I've seen lots of people call their approach "scientific," but their ideas are often ridiculous. But Coup? He has a great understanding of Newton.

Mick starts by teaching what he calls the "Foundation" elements of C2. It is difficult to explain on paper, but very easy in person. But here goes.

Riding through everything he does is the "Attitude." And the attitude to foster when training and fighting is one of survival, the old "do whatever it takes to survive" mindset.

His overall "Strategy" has 2 names. One is Constant Offensive Pressure", the other is GLF - Go Like F###! It means that, once it kicks off? You go at the threat with 100% of everything you have got. No counterpunching, no feiting and drawing.... just go like f###.

His "Tacitcs" are in 2 strands. The main tactic is to repeat a blow. If something is worth hitting once, it is worth hitting twice. If he catches you with a big right hand straight, you'll find you're getting another one before you recover...and another..... He fires them in bursts of 2-4, re-assesses the situation, and then fires again (either the same shot or another).

His second tatic is called "reverse." If you are taking hits, then cover and fire off both hands in turn constantly, think of it a little like a straight blast. These shots are not high power, but they put firepower down to suppress his...then letting you revert to tactic number 1 again.

He then has his "Primary tools." In order to become a primary tool a technique has to pass a series of tests. They have to be simple - capable - adaptable - versatile - repeatable - recoverable. If they pass all these, then they're in. But not many make it.

He has three broad arenas for the blows.

1) High Line. This translates into a a straight rear hand/elbow blow mostly.

2) Low line. A straight kick/knee to the legs or groin

3) Off line - if there is no straight line to the target, or if the target is off to the side or rear? Then the off line strike is used. These include a horizintal hammer fist or elbow blow.

These blows are practiced to perfection.

Secondary tools.

These include great blows that maybe havent passed the stringent test outlined earlier. Like the side stomp kick, or vertical hammer fist.

Support skills

These are skills designed to help you apply your primary tools. Things like using your lead arm to pull his guard out of the way whilst you blast his head. Another notable support skill is called "indexing." This is brilliantly simple, and helps you hit a moving target even if your eyes are closed!

Phew! That is a lightning tour of the Foundation element of C2 Core Combatives, and does not do it justice at all. But it does give you an indication of the simplicity behind it all.

One of his secondary tools is a hook blow, delivered with the palm heel. I held the pads for him, and he almost ripped my arm off. I am about 210lbs in weight. I held a pad for him against my body whilst he gave it a straight mid section punch. My feet left the floor, literally.

I guess he isn't getting to NZ any time soon, but he will release a DVD in the next few months.

Hope that helps!

[Thai Bri]

ps, these guys are your side of the equator. Theres some Combative things going on with them. Hope this helps

http://www.sportzblitz.com.au/Forum/FORUM.asp?FORUM_ID=4

[WildWest.]

Yeah that helps a lot. Tell him to come to NZ as I'd love to do his instructors course!

I read the article on the C2 website that were posted in Martial Arts Illustrated, and they back up what you said about what he teaches. To be honest I think you explained it better than the article does, probably more simplified, but I got the gist of it. Reading what you wrote about having the right attitude etc kind of backs up a theory I have about fighting or defending yourself in that showing some "animal" and ferociousness when someone attacks you is a huge advantage to you and bad luck for them. Most MA's teach too much "one-punch-wonders" or teach to not show aggression when fighting. There's fighting blind and aggression which are 2 different things if you know what I mean.

I like the whole grabbing someone and repeatedly beating them. Not pretty but very effective. Putting this in context makes me appreciate the grabs we practise in Hapkido. We learn to grab someone and elbow them or palm strike them etc. I didn't respect that technique all that much to be honest as I thought why would you tie up one of your weapons? but now I understand its purpose and it makes sense.

Being that I do MT, and you have experience in that art also, would you say that I should have a good base of primary tools anyway?? Add to it a couple of good palm strikes, some hammer strieks, and some vital point strikes eg eyes, throat etc and I should be on my way?

On a different note, where abouts do you work?? You can PM that if you don't want the whole world to know.

Thanks for the time you took to explain C2, I appreciate it.

[WildWest.]

ps, these guys are your side of the equator. Theres some Combative things going on with them. Hope this helps

http://www.sportzblitz.com.au/Forum/...asp?FORUM_ID=4

Australia is still 3000km away but thanks for the thought! The best guy in NZ is probably Tank Todd who teaches the SAS. He's a Master Chief Instructor in unarmed combat so knows a thing or 2. But, like I said in a previous post, he too is at the other end of the country. You may want to check out his stuff:

http://www.schoolofselfdefence.com/

Let me know what you think. I'd love to do a seminar with him, work and finanacial restrictions, training and family committments tend to take up a lot of my time unfortunately but I'll get there.