advantage over grapplers

[kanik]

Heya thanks uke, i appreciate it. I do beleive i can beat a grappler without grappling(i just need to train and work harder) though i would like to know some basic aspects of it for fun anyway ^_^.

[jubaji]

the voice of experience?

But to answer your question KOTF, grappling defense, especially in BJJ and wrestling, is to hold on to your opponent until he gets tired of taking shots at you.

oh brother...........................

[EmptyneSs]

Can some one explain to me the defensive aspects of grappling? How would you go about using grappling for defense.

Not offense but defense. What is grappling defense against a knife thrust per say?

i dont think anyone ever joined a bjj club with the intent on using it against armed people. the only people who seem to think grappling is to be used agaisnt armed people are you and uke. i mean, i dont see any grapplers saying shit like that.

with that being said, grappling does indeed have self defense value. ill give some examples.

it can help you escape bad positions forced on you by aggressors. like if someone put you in a headlock, or sat on your chest, or just plain tried to physically overpower you, grappling can help you defend yourself and escape these inferior positions with technique.

knowing grappling can also help you avoid going to the ground. it can also help you get to your feet fast if you do find yourself on the ground or tangled up with another person.

[Tant01]

You really seem to like guessing don't you, punk?

Have Ju read the "new" forum rules (yet)?

[Tant01]

Feed the hype

i dont think anyone ever joined a bjj club with the intent on using it against armed people. the only people who seem to think grappling is to be used agaisnt armed people are you and uke. i mean, i dont see any grapplers saying shit like that.

......

Uh huh.... It's all in HOW YOU MARKET YOUR SPORT.

To quote the so called "Grand Master" of "Brazilian" Jiu jitsu (JUJUTSU)

"If someone points a gun at you, of course, you will be scared. But jiu-jutsu gives me the equivalent of a bullet proof shield. It protects me from head to toe, plus it gives me the ability to take a gun away."


Helio Gracie. via Doug Jeffrey. (From the April '05 issue of GRAPPLING magazine)


Yeah... it's like THAT!

[Uke]

i dont think anyone ever joined a bjj club with the intent on using it against armed people. the only people who seem to think grappling is to be used agaisnt armed people are you and uke. i mean, i dont see any grapplers saying shit like that.

Oh really?

Whatever your Self-Defense needs may be the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy is your solution.

They go further to state:

Our Self-Defense techniques are combat proven and street-tested.

http://www.gracieacademy.com/

Now, in the 15 years that the Gracies have had real exposure in America, they've never once demonstrated any jujitsu self defense stand up techniques in the ring aside from a front guillotine choke. Isn't the ring BJJ/MMA's proving ground? Well they've proven that their throws are terrible and they can't use jujitsu on their feet. Have you actually seen their idea of weapons defense, if you'd even call it that?

With that said, every Gracie, and every BJJ fighter go to the ground on purpose. They're the one's shooting in for the clinch, not the other way around. They're the one's executing the takedowns and/or sacrifice throws. Now, MMA fighters may tend to want to stand up and fight. Nogueira, who now trains with olympic boxing hopefuls, isn't using BJJ or wrestling when he stands up. Its all boxing. Remember, we are speaking about grappling, not boxing. Watch any NHB event including the Abu Dhabi and 99% of the victories are on the ground. And the Abu Dhabi showcases the vanguard of grappling.

So by stating "Whatever your Self-Defense needs may be the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy is your solution", and with 99% of wrestling and BJJ techniques winning on the ground, the Gracies are teaching weapons self defense that WILL end up on the ground. If you want to argue that the Gracies are has been's, Nogueira has won 18 of his 28 victories on his back. An additional seven of his decisions have been won by using ground grappling, and only three TKO's(striking wins). That's pretty telling. And of course the Gracies can say that their techniques are street tested. They've fought in the street before. That's a given. But only when surrounded by an entourage of family and friends. Just because there are 30 people at a fight doesn't mean a thing if 28 of them are making sure its one on one and no weapons are produced.

And how could we forget:

A man who is by no means a "master" of BJJ, (although he's really fricking good) can literally beat me before I know whats happening.... and by beat me, I mean choking the life out of me or braking my arms.

Sure it takes a few seconds for him to remove the blood from my brain... but in those seconds am I going to be clearly thinking, ok , reach into pocket, withdraw knife, stab this guy.

Ill prolly be thinking, OW MY FUCKING THROAT WHAT THE **** OW

Seems like he clearly believes that BJJ will work against a knife attack. You said you didn't see it, so I thought I'd throw you that little bone. Have you seen it now?

But when you wrote:

with that being said, grappling does indeed have self defense value. ill give some examples.

it can help you escape bad positions forced on you by aggressors. like if someone put you in a headlock, or sat on your chest, or just plain tried to physically overpower you, grappling can help you defend yourself and escape these inferior positions with technique.

knowing grappling can also help you avoid going to the ground. it can also help you get to your feet fast if you do find yourself on the ground or tangled up with another person.

... you basically were doing your best parrot impersonation because that's what I've been saying in dozens of posts since arriving at this site.

Grapple with that.

[Shard]

I've said this before i'm going to say it again.

If you're a striker, you'll need to train your ground work.
If you've got a good ground play, you need to train striking.

If you think you're the best Striker in town,i hope someone will come by and drop you on your head.
If you think you're the greatest grappler since kimura, i hope you get KTFO.

It doesn't matter if you strike or grapple. You're going to be in trouble vs. a knife. No matter what.

[Tant01]

......

It doesn't matter if you strike or grapple. You're going to be in trouble vs. a knife. No matter what.

THANK YOU!!

[EmptyneSs]

first off, i dont put much faith in anything the gracies have to say or offer, they will market their shit anyway they can to make money.i look at them as scam artists more than anything else, but that still doesnt mean grappling is useless.

But when you wrote: ... you basically were doing your best parrot impersonation because that's what I've been saying in dozens of posts since arriving at this site.

thats not true either. it was only a few posts ago when you said something as asanine as this....

[But to answer your question KOTF, grappling defense, especially in BJJ and wrestling, is to hold on to your opponent until he gets tired of taking shots at you. Now if we go by what we've seen by the top grappling practitioners(excluding jubaji of course), once they get punched in the face(and they usually do) they shoot in so that you can't get velocity on your strikes. Then they either go for a double leg takedown or a sacrifice sweep which almost always puts them in the guard.

[Uke]

It doesn't matter if you strike or grapple. You're going to be in trouble vs. a knife. No matter what.

I agree knife attacks being trouble. I can't speak for some others here, but I don't pretend that knife disarms are easy or always clean. No one is invincible and no one implied that except for Helio Gracie as was stated above. But weapon disarms, specifically knife disarms are very possible and taught in modern SD/UC systems all the time. Anyone who says they aren't shouldn't honestly shop around.

I was always to taught to avoid a confrontation because you never know who is armed, and because of that its better to assume that everyone is. I'm not against running. But if its got to be, I won't be unprepared because my training lacked that dimension.

Now as far as EmptyneSs goes: You can seethe in denial if you like. But every BJJ player employs the same tactics that I wrote. THAT'S WHY THEY ARE FORCED TO CROSSTRAIN NOWADAYS. The whole "upright posturing with arms outstretched while slowly plodding forward and throwing low kicks to feel out the guy and then shoot in" strategy is dead. No one who wants to win does it anymore. Grappling, specifically BJJ and wrestling NEVER aim to keep a fight standing. Maybe you believe that you're going to start suplexing opponents when it hits the fan, but those of us who live on Earth have gravity to contend with. And once you begin discussing strikes (punches, kicks, knees elbows)it's no longer grappling. I guess that fact escaped you.

No one brought up the idea that grappling is useless but you, emptyness. We've discussed that it is not practical for certain situations, but no one other than you ever cast grappling in the light as being useless. Somehow in your confusion, you've convinced yourself that I feel that grappling is useless, and you felt the need to champion the cause of defending an argument that didn't exist any place but in your mind. Even though I've told you again and again that I don't feel that grappling is useless, you continue to pursue that argument. You're like the guy from 50 First Dates who can't hold a thought for more than 10 seconds. You are seriously making a lot of people laugh right now. And they're not laughing with you.

Grappling is NOT useless! Get a book. Write it down. Make a video tape to remind yourself. But don't come around me with that tired ass nonsense anymore.

[EmptyneSs]

you didnt just say this? it i know i wasnt me.

But to answer your question KOTF, grappling defense, especially in BJJ and wrestling, is to hold on to your opponent until he gets tired of taking shots at you. Now if we go by what we've seen by the top grappling practitioners(excluding jubaji of course), once they get punched in the face(and they usually do) they shoot in so that you can't get velocity on your strikes. Then they either go for a double leg takedown or a sacrifice sweep which almost always puts them in the guard.

saying shit like this makes it real easy to see that you dont even know anything about grappling, yet you talk as if you are some kind of authority on it and feel the need to lecture others.

[EmptyneSs]

Grappling, specifically BJJ and wrestling NEVER aim to keep a fight standing.

how would you know? you dont participate in either. and what do you think throws are for? wrestling specializes in standup grappling, and employs tons of throws for the sole perpouse of putting your opponent to the ground, while staying on your feet yourself. judo does the same. you dont need to mount someone after you have thrown them on solid concrete.

again, you show how little you know about grappling. all you know about grappling is what you have seen in ufc matches.

[Uke]

you didnt just say this? it i know i wasnt me.



saying shit like this makes it real easy to see that you dont even know anything about grappling, yet you talk as if you are some kind of authority on it and feel the need to lecture others.

Where did it say grappling was useless???? I'm sure somehow you see it, but the rest of us can't seem to finf that passage.

[EmptyneSs]

Where did it say grappling was useless???? I'm sure somehow you see it, but the rest of us can't seem to finf that passage.

stop trying to take attention away from the fact that you dont know jack shit about grappling, yet try to speak like an authority on it.

yet again, changing the subject is all you have going for you. saying that a grappler would do something as dumb as hold someone in their guard till they got tired for their way of using grappling as self defense does indeed imply its pretty useless doesnt it? but then again not only do you know very little about grappling, not only do you not know how to use grappling skills to your advantage for self defense, but you cant understand the difference between watching a ufc match and real life "SD" either despite talking about how different they are. you see people use grappling in mma matches on tv on your couch and dont realize that isnt how its gonna go down real life. yeah bro, go get into a fight with an experienced grappler, see if he is going to hold you in his guard hoping and waiting for you to tire out lol.

[SnakePlissken]

When it all comes down to it, fighting is fighting, sport is sport. Something being 'tried and tested' in the ring does not make it effective in the street, it makes it good for sporting competitions.

I think anyone who truly believes that ground fighting is not only effective, but preferable in the street fight situation, and believes they can counter armed and/or multiple opponents from the ground needs to read this article:

http://www.donrearic.com/brokenglass.html