advantage over grapplers

[jubaji]

Instead of having petty side arguments with forum members, let's just keep this about fact vs. fiction.

Fact: Any half way decent self defense system teaches their students to avoid going to the ground.

Fiction: Telling your students that its okay to go to the ground in an altercation despite weapons and multiple attackers..

Oh, fer cryin' out loud...


Are you a member of some cult that just chants this shit over and over all day?

[jubaji]

Then your argument became "What if the grappler is much better than you and won't let you off the ground?". I've seen men like Shamrock and Severn stall a match nearly to its conclusion, which means I can hold you there until someone shows up to possibly help me. .

LOL! Is Severn supposed to be your example of a man "of much lesser grappling skill"?! LOL. Tool.

[jubaji]

As one poster said earlier, just because you have scars or have been stabbed doesn't mean that what you say makes sense. It means that what you thought you knew you obviously didn't.

So, you only know what you are talking about if you have been in a number of encounters with knives and never had a scratch? Does that make sense, pUke?

[Sagacious Lu]

So, you only know what you are talking about if you have been in a number of encounters with knives and never had a scratch? Does that make sense, pUke?

I don't think he cares if he actually makes sense, I think he's just trying to use as many words per post as he possibly can. He's already used more words than my buddy did in his disertation and he shows no signs of slowing down. Hell, most people expect to get royalties or be awarded a degree when they write something that long. I can't be arsed to wade through it all personally.

[jubaji]

Fiction: The way that some pretend that because they’ve done MMA in gyms or fought drunk guys who have more liquor in them than a desire to fight, they’ve somehow tested their own theories in reality settings. In the 15 years or so that MMA has existed, some people think that they've evolved instead of factoring in that they're watching sponsored professional athletes who are paid to do nothing but focus on fighting and training. What's the ratio for sponsored professional fighters to regular citizens who just need to know how to defend themselves?.

So, which is it? Do you have to prepare for the drunk, or professionals?

[jubaji]

I don't think he cares if he actually makes sense, I think he's just trying to use as many words per post as he possibly can. He's already used more words than my buddy did in his disertation and he shows no signs of slowing down. Hell, most people expect to get royalties or be awarded a degree when they write something that long. I can't be arsed to wade through it all personally.

It's the monkeys and the typewriter thing!

[kanik]

Hey guess what all, i am going to be fighting my friend in a week or three(we still havent decided when) and he is a grappler ^_^ i beleive he is reasonably good and i personnally hope he doesnt get me in any painful locks or throws... but anywho.... so i fight with my strikes and knees a lot, and somtimes, not usually though kicks which are more just for finishing, and he relys on grabbing, throws, etc. (grappler stuff) so my question is.... WTF am i ment to do if he gets me in a really strong hold or lock, or is about to throw me? anyway yeh i have thought of somthings i can do but i would like to see what else veryone else thinks of it...



Kanik

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Hey guess what all, i am going to be fighting my friend in a week or three(we still havent decided when) and he is a grappler ^_^ i beleive he is reasonably good and i personnally hope he doesnt get me in any painful locks or throws... but anywho.... so i fight with my strikes and knees a lot, and somtimes, not usually though kicks which are more just for finishing, and he relys on grabbing, throws, etc. (grappler stuff) so my question is.... WTF am i ment to do if he gets me in a really strong hold or lock, or is about to throw me? anyway yeh i have thought of somthings i can do but i would like to see what else veryone else thinks of it...



Kanik

You guys should at least wear mouth guards and gloves when youre fighting like this. Its not worth getting a tooth knocked out or a eye socket broken. So he's a grappler(or so he says), youre a self proclaimed striker(unless you actually do Boxing, KB, MT). If your friend really is an experianced grappler(or wrestler), you will get taken down and finished without a doubt. You should start learning how to defend all types of takedowns and figure out what to do from your back....But even that might not be enough considering he has more grappling experiance than you. BTW, you might want to take out Elbow and Knee strikes, because even though youre a "striker", if anyone's gonna get fvcked up by them it'll be you...

[Garland]

So, which is it? Do you have to prepare for the drunk, or professionals?

drunk professionals...or the professional drunk.

[kanik]

You guys should at least wear mouth guards and gloves when youre fighting like this. Its not worth getting a tooth knocked out or a eye socket broken. So he's a grappler(or so he says), youre a self proclaimed striker(unless you actually do Boxing, KB, MT). If your friend really is an experianced grappler(or wrestler), you will get taken down and finished without a doubt. You should start learning how to defend all types of takedowns and figure out what to do from your back....But even that might not be enough considering he has more grappling experiance than you. BTW, you might want to take out Elbow and Knee strikes, because even though youre a "striker", if anyone's gonna get fvcked up by them it'll be you...

Yeh we are wearing gloves and all that junk, and he isnt like a pro or anything he is just pretty good, i have learnt a little bit of grappling though he knows a lot more, and i dont plan to let him get close enough to grab me, and if he does, than ah well... i personnally dont care that much, also its not like we are really going to try and kill each other man, its only friendly competition with some contact, we are going to go easy around the facial areas due to the fact we dont know what to expect from each other but in the future we might decide otherwise... well anyway yeh i did ask for advice on what to do against grapplers, but i didnt ask anyone to tell me what chances i'll get my ass handed to me, i know i'll prolly lose but the reason why i will fight with him anyway is for elarning experince, nowa-days everyone is just to worried about getting hurt and stuff... even if i do get hurt it was my choice and i dont give a crap. Some people may think i am just stupid, so if you are one of those people keep it to yourself. so anywho the reason i would use elbows/knees is only if he gets to close i cant use anything else, i dont use knees as often as elbows though.... anywho yeh

[traveller]

Okay
I have to weigh in here as well tonight.
1st a few of you should jump on over to our little martial arts history thread and add your observations and read some others.
Uke, sorry, but you missed the boat on whether grappling has ever been taught as a primary combat art.
The US has trained its soldiers in grappling techniques since before WWI, and still does so today. Military police and security forces are trained in forms of grappling. Numerous special forces are trained in grappling techniques as well. Currently 100s of soldiers are getting BJJ training.
For the other "grappling doesn't work outside the ring crowd members" I posted a bit elsewhere a day or so ago. I have worked club/bar security and concert security more than enough times to have faced a number of situations.
In many cases I (the employed security guy) had rules to follow, like no punching the patrons regardless of what they do, and even absolutely "no striking" period at at least 9 events. The other guy (we use to call them idiots) had no rules.
Grappling works well against anything if used properly and you remember its limitations. The broken beer bottle or pool stick are always a danger, but you can beat them.
Knives are typically not a terrible threat unless you screw up, most of the people who pull them barely know how to use them, but you should be prepared regardless.
Yes, you may have to go to the ground, even if "idiots" friends are around. But when you whisper in pissants ear to tell his friends to get the hell away or his arm breaks he usually yells it out pretty loud. By then you have help of your own.
That doesn't mean you want to take it to the ground, but you can.
I am not a tough guy by any means. I don't fight for fun. And have never been much more than a once in a while competitive fighter. I don't usually talk about any fights I have been in -- win or lose. But I will tell you this, the last big security gig I did was a 3-day concert 2 years ago. In one night I had to physically deal with 8 idiots (all different instances, not at the same time). 7 of these were pretty drunk which made it easier for me. The big ass cowboy wasn't drunk and I made the mistake of thinking he was. Therefore his punch actually connected before I could get a grip on him, and he managed a good elbow to my ribs at one point -- I never threw a punch, kick, elbow or any other strike -- but I did help him off the ground before escorting him to the gate.

Why don't grapplers win on their feet very often in the ring? -- because it is the ring. No one else to worry about and you can take serious control over an opponent once on the ground and save yourself some effort.
And answer this, if grappling throws don't work in the ring, explain exactly what Matt Hughes is doing when he locks onto someone, lifts them up and slams them back to the ground -- never mind its called grappling.
The best fighter regardless of the situation will ultimately be the one prepared to defend against every threat, and has the ability to bring multiple threats to the opponent.
To the very original question -- understanding grappling is essential to overcoming a grappler. Despite what some strike, strike strike proponents want you to think.
Even the best strikers in the various MMA circuits understand what grapplers can do and know what to avoid.
You do not have to become an expert grappler yourself, but you need to know what it is all about.

[yoshinkan]

Exactly

Exactly, that's why I started pancrace and ji u jitsu back in 1997.

You must understand your opponent, otherwise, you will be surprised.

To the very original question -- understanding grappling is essential to overcoming a grappler. Despite what some strike, strike strike proponents want you to think.
Even the best strikers in the various MMA circuits understand what grapplers can do and know what to avoid.
You do not have to become an expert grappler yourself, but you need to know what it is all about.

[Uke]

jubaji and Sagacious Lu: If either of you had bothered to refute anything that I wrote with a show of any amount of competence beyond demonstrating your ability to quote me, then you might be more than fleas that ride Mike's jock in this debate.

Mike and traveller: First, I'd like to address the fact throws and such are not the issue here. We are discussing newaza traveller, not nagewaza or kansetsuwaza. Throwing and joint locking for arrest to control techniques are not ground fighting. Second, if you look at the majority of law enforcement and look at their training, you'll notice that they too share the same maxim as the one I've been stating: DO NOT GO TO THE GROUND, AND IF TAKEN THERE GET UP! The army had an interest in BJJ in the early 90's because it seemed like a quick, quiet way to discreetly confront and neutralize a target. They soon realized that it wasn't as effective for their purposes as they thought. And just because BJJ may be an activity that the armed forces offers doesn't mean that its their chosen method of offense or defense. They also offer kung fu, karate jujitsu and boxing, but you won't see those advertised as "specialized" training for anyone. Police officers often take up boxing, but you won't see it being offered as tactical approach for anything.


As far as history goes traveller, once passed the arrows and the cavalry, it was the warriors who mastered close quarter weapon tactics that won on the battlefield. The Mongols. The Zulus. Ninja and Samurai. American Indians. The Moors. These groups didn't win due to sheer numbers like the Romans or the Greeks. They won with less numbers but with a more savage approach that brought the fight up close and personal. I'm not saying that no one ever fell in battle. I'm not saying that no one was ever taken down. But I am saying that if you study the history of combat on the battlefield and not in arenas and rings, you'll see the reality of combat was edged weapons until the development of the gun. As I provided earlier, the fusen ryu school of jujitsu, which is the school that popularized the method that is used by the Gracies today, wasn't developed UNTIL weapons and the samurai class was banned. That is no coincidence. Unarmed combat became a reality once modern governments mandated that citizens were not allowed to bare arms.

But when traveller wrote "You do not have to become an expert grappler yourself, but you need to know what it is all about", I agree. Totally. How can you effectively reverse chokes and submissions, and escape the guard/mount positions if you didn't have a solid understanding of those things? You don't have to be an expert to learn those things in order to get back to your feet. I totally agree with that, traveller. Well said.

And Mike, when I wrote that a bout could be stalled when brought to the ground, I did so to make a different point than the one you walked away with. In the examples I gave, both Severn and Shamrock stalled their matches against Royce Gracie for just about the entire match. What wasn't factored in there was the fact that if Royce truly wished to forgo the guard and return to his feet, I'm sure he could have. The point is that he didn't want to, because he felt safe in his guard, like most if not all ground fighting artists do. He stayed there, like all ground grapplers do, because he didn't think he had much of a chance standing up. Once a ground grappler fears the guy he's fighting or his power, he won't want to stand up with him and if he can, he will make it a ground bout for as long as the opponent will play into his guard. And if that wasn't the case we'd see alot more ground grapplers winning on their feet much more often. But still there are those who will pretend that even the best ground grapplers win mostly on the ground by choice, which is another fantasy.

And BTW Mike, since when was it so difficult to exit someone's guard? It may be difficult to pass the guard, but since when was it so difficult to exit? There is no grappler that has ever competed publicly that has not had someone exit their guard. Again, we are not speaking of passing the guard, but merely exiting it, leaving the ground grappler on his back looking for opportunities to kick at his opponent's legs. With that in mind, what is the ground grappler to do once his opponent is on his feet and he is still laying on his back?

PS We're not speaking about grappling as a whole. This is a point that seems to magically disappear from your thinking as you write your replies. We are speaking about newaza or GROUND GRAPPLING, not arrest to control techniques, or joint locking. We are not speaking of throws, sweeps or takedowns either.

[Uke]

I don't see it as an argument. I see it as a discussion as long as you and I are both civil, Mike. There are points made on both sides. But view it as you will.

Truth is there has been more said here than on most every other topic in a very long time. And now that Boarspear has decided that this site is a waste of time and effort, I don't mind going over the merits of something worthwhile with you. Or didn't you see that in the rep that I gave you?

I guess you'd rather talk about silly shit rather than at least participate in a debate that brings up the most important elements of combat into question. I guess you feel my points are more argumentive than simply looking to strengthen my stance.

Oh well. I guess now you can pursue deep debates about "MMA and its impact on the history of human combat". Sorry you feel that way. Have fun.

[traveller]

Good points Uke.
The original thread asked about beating grapplers period. It didn't address just the ground portion, and I wasn't responding solely to your points, sorry if there was any confusion.
To your history points -- I have studied the history of combat quite thoroughly. I have even participated in field trials of evaluating old military manuals on swordplay and the use of other edged weapons. Yes the blade was the reality of combat, but it was far from what you see in movies with fancifull sparring from a distance. It was very up and personal as you said. It was brutal as quoted, and as demonstrated in a variety of illustrated manuals from the middle ages, it relied as much on the proper use of the body (hips, hands and feet) as a whole as it did on the edge of the blade.
And I am also still in the military defending my country -- so I am well aware of the options for close combat available and who gets trained in what.
And I still work security part time at events whenevr possible, so I haven't seen the end of physical confrontation (though I think I will be giving that part time stuff up soon)

Uke why not repost your history portion in the other thread about MMA history.

I am not sure what you have against ground fighting whether in an urban setting or a ring, your post seem to give reason why it shouldn't be your primary tactic, but nothing you have said dismisses it's merits completely.
There is a place for the ground fight in both arenas.
I will admit I have been taken to the ground on the street, and the only thing I wanted to do was get up and out. I did not try to keep it on the ground, but knowing how to get out of the situation was what allowed me to stand it back up. If I had never wrestled at all, I probably would have suffered a pounding worse than anything you see in the ring.

So far this has been interesting. I think however there are some semantic issues that are causing argument vs discussion. Seems to be a common theme in all the threads actually. One person considers grappling as a whole, another only thinks of grappling as ground fighting, while another isn't sure what either actually. Apply it to any topic. Dogs ves cats -- one guy talks about dogs and cats in general, the other argues about the Shepperd and the Tabby.