Stereotyping RBSD practitioners...Why?

[Urban Tarzan]

I'm searching for an explenation on why you think or why others think that RBSD practitioners are delusional in wanting to train in tactics outside of MMA/sport cage fighting.

Why do these people think that we view a groin shot, throat strike, or eye gouge as a one hit finisher? When we know that's not the case and never expect it to be.

Why can't our MA goal be SD oriented and not prize fighting oriented? As many are told that RBSD is a waste of time/not effective. Even though there are many testimonies out there that says to the contrary.

I think this is more of a vent then a questionaire. I just see that people want to create a chasm between MMA(the sport version) and RBSD for whatever reason. When open communications between both camps would serve greater for the individual fighter. IMHO.

[piousmaximus]

Tarzan, who gives a shit what the mma community thinks? Or the tma community? Or the damn jehovah's witnesses for that matter. Everyone who trains in whatever always thinks they know all the angles of a this or that. I've talked to dudes into the 'reality' based self defense thing who tell me that they're confident to take on trained boxers in a dark alley. Yeh, right!!!
*no rolleye smilie big enough*

Just train in what you train and don't pay attention to all the fluff talk.

[johnj]

I don't think this is the belief in general. RBSD has grown in popularity in the past 10 years as a very effective method of training. Although guys like Tony Blauer & Peyton Quinn were sharing the concepts, philosophy and psychology over 20 years ago. RBSD methods of training includes educating practitioners and the general public on material that is often neglected by traditional schools and MMA schools alike. The importance of dialogue as a supplement to just techniques is just one aspect that makes RBSD a smarter approach. Verbal de-fusion or de-escalation, understanding fear management, introduction to liability, risk and legalities, adrenalin and stress, role playing in scenarios, universal principles and of course, mindset to name a few. I believe the appeal lacks from MMA because they are sport conditioned fighters and believe that cross training in various areas/ranges is enough to deal with the realities of a violent attack. While technical knowledge is essential, it is not enough to deal with the type of random and stealth crimes such as a robbery and/or assault situation. Maybe a 1-to-1 barfight between drunks or some jocks. As mentioned, the training also requires a committment to role playing in order for the training to be effective. Many do not care for it or do not understand the need. Logic will tell you that if you are victimized, you will not square off with your opponent. You will not be attacked with stagnant attacks or by someone begging you for your wallet. Verbal abuse can stop you at your track. And once the focus has been shifted, your in deep trouble. Again, I stress that it is not necessarily the techniques but how we train to apply the techniques. The when, where, how and whys during conlict. I also believe the lack of interest can be a result of the lack of understanding violence, lack of incentives (i.e. trophies, belts etc) and may even be the rsult of too much morals. Morals are lost once you are victimized. There needs to be a clear distinction between training for the streets and cross training for sport combat/a fight. The element of surprise alone has put many professional fighters on the ground. And the surprise came from strategy. Although my forte in the martial arts became FMA, I became a quick am proponent of RBSD/Combatives once I experienced it and have been hooked ever since. The approach has been nothing but beneficial to my students. I tend to question most people when they say, "I have been doing that for years" cause chances are they have not.

BTW...I will actually be attending Rich Dimitri's Senshido seminar in D.C. this weekend. This is my 3rd seminar and I always look forward to his openness to other methods and down to earth personality. Hopefully some members will be there as well.

[johnj]

Everyone who trains in whatever always thinks they know all the angles of a this or that.

That is a blanket statement. Not everyone is that cocky. I think we should just look at RBSD in the same manner as MMA and crosstraining.

[piousmaximus]

Yes, well, you'll forgive the loose terming of 'everyone', and I trust will accept 'many' as a viable alternative.

[wado_kai]

Tarzan, who gives a shit what the mma community thinks? Or the tma community? Or the damn jehovah's witnesses for that matter. Everyone who trains in whatever always thinks they know all the angles of a this or that. I've talked to dudes into the 'reality' based self defense thing who tell me that they're confident to take on trained boxers in a dark alley. Yeh, right!!!
*no rolleye smilie big enough*

Just train in what you train and don't pay attention to all the fluff talk.

possibly the best comment i have ever seen on this site

[johnj]

It's because, on the whole, none of them has the first goddamn clue about "real fighting."

We need to stop generalizing a thought process. Maybe it’s just me but I don’t hear too much about the conflict in practice and philosophy. Then again, I do devote any considerable amount of time with either environment. I have peers from both and many cross train with each other.

Fact is, there are many tools that will tilt the playing field in a streetfight against a Thai Boxer or MMA guy. Weapons, friends, and so-called "foul tactics" are just some of them. RBSD guys recognize that these things are not only advantageous, but that they happen for real - so we train them, and we train them from both sides of the equation (if we're doing our jobs). We see that 95% of the time, fights will only require basics - nothing fancy or deadly. But we also realize that the other 5% of the time, basic punches and kicks just aren't going to be enough.

Very true but I think we need to go even further by realizing a street fight is different from an assault/robbery. The time, place and elements of engagement make a world of difference. And this is where psychology becomes your best strategy and drives the methods you end up using to prevail.

On the other hand, most MMA guys, boxers, kickboxers, etc. realize early on that most fights are not life and death gun battles against armies of assailants. They see and rightfully assess that a good, solidly conditioned athlete with some basic and sound punches, kicks, knees, elbows, throws, and submissions will give them the ability to handle almost every encounter they're likely to come up against. They think RBSD guys make too much of fighting, and for the most part, they're dead right. At least until they come up against that other 5%.

A solidly conditioned athlete in any situation has an advantage. However, much of the techniques can also be negated rather easily with simple tools like gouging, breaking a finger, pulling hair, ripping the ear, biting etc. This is the main reason rules are established for the arena. They are not fighting in a life or death situation. Again, I am not speaking from a bar brawl scenario, though some of these things can work very well. I am talking about becoming a target in a crime.

The trouble on either side is when the RBSD guys train solely for the "kill the bad guys" situation without acknowledging the rarity of such events, or when the MMA guys refuse to admit that their sport, while adequate for most encounters leaves them woefully lacking in others.

Absolutely…that is why it is essential to to have as you put it sounds striking, kicking etc. A base knowledge of grappling too will suffice.

In my experience, it's just best to try and center yourself realistically, and use the training methods from anywhere you can find them if they help you achieve what you set out to do. MMA, boxing, kickboxing, judo, and other forms of sport fighting can be a real benefit to RBSD people if they give it a chance and keep it in perspective. However, the reverse is rarely true, since sport fighters are first and foremost concerned with excellence in their chosen sport - not streetfights.

If the practitioner is only concerned with excellence and competition then yes, they may not find the need in RBSD training. However, there is a greater percentage of traditionalist and even sport players that train a specific art NOT for the purpose of excellence and competition but as a means of self-defense, health, etc. This again may reflect on demographics. After all, sport practitioners are predominately males between the early teens and 30’s.

I think most of us agree that an open mind to both areas of training is all that is needed. Take it or leave it but do not criticize it.

[piousmaximus]

Thanks, Wadi.

I'll tell you what, I don't blame the mma crowd for bagging on rbsd. All those mma dudes do all day is fight each other...and they fight hard. They're quite prepared to take on nearly anyone on the street, trained or not. Practice your crotchkicks and eye gouges, in a bar fight, you'll still likely get your ass handed to you by a ring fighter.

That said, we're preparing ourselves to take on the muggers, the drunks, the road ragers with more mouth than skill. In other words, we don't train to take on trained fighters, because, well, the chance that a trained fighter will be that mugger or beligerant drunk getting in your face are quite slim. Hence, if we're talking about training for the most likely situation, the average joe has no need to train like a ring fighter.

[johnj]

I'll tell you what, I don't blame the mma crowd for bagging on rbsd. All those mma dudes do all day is fight each other...and they fight hard. They're quite prepared to take on nearly anyone on the street, trained or not.

RBSD is not all about the psychology of the fight. Believe me, they fight and the they often test in an environment more rigorous and adrenalin based than any MMA sparring sessions.

Practice your crotchkicks and eye gouges, in a bar fight, you'll still likely get your ass handed to you by a ring fighter.

An uneducated comment...the chances of going toe to toe with a ring fighter vs. a pissed off drunk who relies on survival instincts and anything he can use if null. Your placing a sparring session too much into the equation. I personally find the benefits from both sides and train in that manner. And even the so-called "ring fighter" can have his ass handed to him. The goals are to win/survive. It just different approaches to develop skills but many of the skills are similar.

[piousmaximus]

Wow, kinda arrogant and confrontational, no?
My good man, I'll have you know I hold a doctorate in being pissed off drunk.

Anyways, I'd do my best to press onto you my deep understanding of 'tearing shit up', but I just don't feel up to it now.






Hey, do you like puppies?


Puppies!

[johnj]

Wow, kinda arrogant and confrontational, no?

What is arrogant or confrontational about my statement? I did not direct anything to you except the fact that you were making blind or better yet ignorant comments. I can see you are not open minded to other ways of training. And that is fine but why underestimate anyone?

I bet in a bar setting, you'd be the pissed off drunk.

Now this comment is confrontational cause you do not know me. However, since that is the case, I can only assume you are one of those trolling keyboard warriors with nothing positve to contribute to this particular thread or forum. As I result, I will laugh along with you

[piousmaximus]

What is arrogant or confrontational about my statement? I did not direct anything to you except the fact that you were making blind or better yet ignorant comments. I can see you are not open minded to other ways of training. And that is fine but why underestimate anyone?



Now this comment is confrontational cause you do not know me. However, since that is the case, I can only assume you are one of those trolling keyboard warriors with nothing positve to contribute to this particular thread or forum. As I result, I will laugh along with you

Yes JohnJ, you are right, of course. In fact, you're so right, that I sensed you rightness before you even posted the above, and rushed to alter my previous post to a less confrontational tone before you could retort. Alas, it was like racing a train, and I missed it by *that* much.

You know JohnJ, the more you post, the more I'm starting to sense a Jesus-like aura around you. Am I the only one? I bet you get that all the time.

JohnJ, can I be your first disciple?

[johnj]

My good man, I'll have you know I hold a doctorate in being pissed off drunk.

Ah, so you are pissed drunk as you write. Now that explains it.

Anyways, I'd do my best to press onto you my deep understanding of 'tearing shit up', but I just don't feel up to it now.

"Tearing shit up"? Is that like a challenge? You don't know me and I don't know you. You may or may not be able to do any of that so why not stop all the b.s. tough talk.

and rushed to alter my previous post to a less confrontational tone before you could retort. Alas, it was like racing a train, and I missed it by *that* much.

LOL! You mean the "dumbest comment" remark I originally made? Yeah...I changed it because I did not want to be pulled into an exchange of dialogue. Whether dumbest, uneducated or ignorant same thing...you are still criticizing something you don't know about or don't do so why bother commenting on it w/o a positive contribution?

JohnJ, can I be your first disciple?

Absolutely!

[piousmaximus]

Yes, uhhuh, yup, uhhh..zzzzzzZZZzzzzzZZzz...whoa! Huh?! What did I miss?

[Phil Elnore]

The reason people stereotype is that they do not know the TRUTH behind REAL self defence.

If any MMA thug tried to get ME he would get my Spyderco right between his BALLS! If he has any ha ha ha!

I have REAL knowledge, knowledge that totally nullifies his stupid mounts and guards.

REAL self protection IS ABOUT CARRYING KNIVES, GUNS AND TORCHES. It is not about doing silly fitness training and "jab cross hook mount roll around" crap!

I could take any TWO MMA fighters with my Spyderco and my hidden blade in my crevicial gapenings/ No problem!

AND THEY ARE JEALOUS.