Bank Employee Stops Thief

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

uke, you pointed out that you have to be in much better shape to be effective with non-combatives in the street than with combatives, requiring much more athleticism than it would to use combative techniques. here's the trade off in my eyes: the sportive arts are healthier for your mind and your perception of the world. this is pretty much analogous to the comparison of "jutsu" to "do." A jutsu is for men and women who live by violence. Violence is their "art" not in an aesthetic sense, but quite literally as carpentry is the art of a man who works with a hammer and nails. A do is for someone who trains their body as one aspect of their life in society.
combatives foster an attitude of fear and insecurity. meeting violence with stronger, more overwhelming violence is a fearful response, no matter how you package it (i know, it's sounding real obvious that i do live in san fran, but i swear, i despise hippies). a martial "way" such as judo has the aim of transcending fear, whether or not it accomplishes it is totally open for debate. "Ju" encompasses the idea beautifully in that subtle way the Japanese language has, because gentleness implies restraint. you train to be strong enough to not have to use your full strength.
i think it's pretty misleading to call judo "watered down". the practice methods were developed to practice safely at full strength and speed. it is watered down only when you measure the do by the ruler of the jutsu, but the two aspire to totally different paths.

[Uke]

I told you the post was previously typed. That's why its goes on about things not in your previos post.

thats great, that still doesnt mean that people cant put together decent self defense skills from other disciplines/arts, nor does it have anything to do with what we are talking about.

I'm sure a football player somewhere in the world has used a shoulder rush tackle to foil a mugging attempt. I'm sure a ballet dancer somewhere has thrown a high kick to defend themselves again a weapon. As I said, anything is possible, but not everything is safe and/or wise to attempt. You could argue that anything could work even though its meant and trained to be used within the confines of its own rules. I know masters of tae kwon do, capoeira, aikido, goju, shotokan and other traditional martial arts that are amazing fighters and could compete at the top levels of NHB. What do they all have in common though? They all have to be in professional level shape in order to be able to be effective with what they've learned. That's the difference. If they fall out of shape for whatever reason, all the years of training and dedication go out of the window. They still have better skills that non-trained fighters, but they aren't even 60% of what they were when they were in pro-level shape. Combatives doesn't require a man to live unrealistically. It addresses the fact that not every man who has a need to defend himself will be in the shape to throw a triple spinning kick found in tae kwon do. He won't be able to do handstands out on the pavement a spin into wheel kicks like you see in capoeira. As you pointed out, most won't be out there picking men up off the ground to powerbomb them. Those are sportive methods that don't teach you to maximize your tools. They teach you to display toughness and exert a lot of energy while attempting to pace yourself. You would have to spend 10-20 years achieving a level of athleticism in capoeira, tae kwon do or boxing just to defend yourself in weapon or multiple attack situations. In top level combatives, you're learning how to defend against blades, firearms and several attackers on your first day. You'd have a higher degree of understanding to survive street violence within 6 months of combatives as opposed to 5 years of training in MMA or other sportive arts.

I suggest you re-read what has been written already. I'm not going to waste time re-writing a hundred things for you to get them. Its all here.

[Uke]

LOL!

I like how some folks who have never actually done what they 'theoretically' pretend to do in 'training' (even going so far as to shout at each other, oh my!) try to take an attitude of superiority based on gritty realism over folks who have done what they purport to do thousands upon thousands of times against people actively trying to thwart them.

Its funny that when asked if they have ever so much as scratched another human being in anger with a knife they sheepishly avoid the question or defensively lash out with the 'coulda, woulda, shoulda' song.

Weapons training a good idea? Yeah

Carrying a weapon ALL the time a good idea? Hmmm, not all the time.

Knowing how to use a weapon a good idea? Oh, yeah.

Training with weapons a good excuse for being a weak, inferior physical specimen without one? Absolutely not.

Training with weapons and avoiding all other training a cause for feeling superior? Laughable.

I thought you found a new topic to keep you occupied? What happened? No one was interested after 8 posts? So you're back here looking for attention?

You claim you're a wrestler, but you spend more time commenting, not discussing things you know nothing about. I posted articles about some of my teachers and their instructors.

Why don't you post some of yours?

[Jiu-fu fighter]

In my opinion, I honestly believe that sportive combatives can be used practically in a self defense situation.

Kickboxing may be used a lot for sport fighting in the ring, but it still teaches you how to throw good kicks , good punches, how to avoid punches, have less fear when faced with a confrontation, builds you up physically , mentally.
This can be said for many other sport combatives

when it comes down to it,

RBSD training is the best,

BUT a man trained in "sportive combatives" ( I already detest that word) has a strong advantage over a man with no training at all.

Uke, my martial arts have not teached me to do anything stupid in a confrontation ( even though my kickboxing and jiu jitsu can be called sport combatives) , just basic attacks I can use to my advantage.

my two cents..

[jubaji]

You claim you're a wrestler, but you spend more time commenting, not discussing things you know nothing about.

LOL



You sure are fond of telling folks what they know nothing about!


Transparent man!

[Uke]

uke, you pointed out that you have to be in much better shape to be effective with non-combatives in the street than with combatives, requiring much more athleticism than it would to use combative techniques. here's the trade off in my eyes: the sportive arts are healthier for your mind and your perception of the world. this is pretty much analogous to the comparison of "jutsu" to "do." A jutsu is for men and women who live by violence. Violence is their "art" not in an aesthetic sense, but quite literally as carpentry is the art of a man who works with a hammer and nails. A do is for someone who trains their body as one aspect of their life in society.
combatives foster an attitude of fear and insecurity. meeting violence with stronger, more overwhelming violence is a fearful response, no matter how you package it (i know, it's sounding real obvious that i do live in san fran, but i swear, i despise hippies). a martial "way" such as judo has the aim of transcending fear, whether or not it accomplishes it is totally open for debate. "Ju" encompasses the idea beautifully in that subtle way the Japanese language has, because gentleness implies restraint. you train to be strong enough to not have to use your full strength.
i think it's pretty misleading to call judo "watered down". the practice methods were developed to practice safely at full strength and speed. it is watered down only when you measure the do by the ruler of the jutsu, but the two aspire to totally different paths.

*sigh* So driving around with a spare tire is living in fear of road hazards? Or is it just being prepared for them?

And the practice methods ARE watered down. Judo is NOT jujitsu. It is a sport art created by Kano that was made "randori" friendly so not to scare off people with threat of sustaining serious injury during practice.

I won't waste time typing a response for you. I'll just repost:

The reputation of sport arts, which most TMA's are nowadays, is predicated upon how well they do in ideal situation like rings and mats. They're trained to respond to aggression in a sportive manner like exchanging and shooting-in. They won't hesitate to reproduce these methods on the street because they are accustomed to winning in this manner during kumite and randori, despite all the new variables that can now be introduced.

The reputation of combatives is predicated upon the knowledge that a single knife can be the equalizer of any empty hand skill, and so because of this combative practitioners are usually always armed, and their focus is on weapon attacks, weapon disarms and retention, and awareness for the highest of street level violence.

I don't think any of this is underestimating anyone or anything. The point that I have made over and over again is that everything has a place and a use. But it isn't until a man has this understanding that he is able to stop wishing for things to be as he would like them and begin to devote his energies towards the mastery of things as they are.

That has always been my point.

Either you understand it or you dont.

[Uke]

In my opinion, I honestly believe that sportive combatives can be used practically in a self defense situation.

Kickboxing may be used a lot for sport fighting in the ring, but it still teaches you how to throw good kicks , good punches, how to avoid punches, have less fear when faced with a confrontation, builds you up physically , mentally.
This can be said for many other sport combatives

when it comes down to it,

RBSD training is the best,

BUT a man trained in "sportive combatives" ( I already detest that word) has a strong advantage over a man with no training at all.

Uke, my martial arts have not teached me to do anything stupid in a confrontation ( even though my kickboxing and jiu jitsu can be called sport combatives) , just basic attacks I can use to my advantage.

my two cents..

This debate, slowly but surely, is becoming a "You said this was worthless" when in truth even above its written that my point is and always has been that everything has its place. I have several people writing posts suggesting that I implied that something is worthless or cannot be used ever, even though its there, plain as day, that I was saying something totally different.

If that's what you want to believe, then hey... go for it.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

*sigh* So driving around with a spare tire is living in fear of road hazards? Or is it just being prepared for them?

This is a pretty simplistic analogy (a pitfall of analogies in general). i'll trust the other thread readers to determine how relevent the parallels are.

And the practice methods ARE watered down. Judo is NOT jujitsu. It is a sport art created by Kano that was made "randori" friendly so not to scare off people with threat of sustaining serious injury during practice.

i know judo is not jujitsu, that was kinda the thrust of a good portion of what i said, like when i said they aspire to totally different paths. the actual practice of judo is much more rigorous than the practice of jujitsu in my experience, so when you say it's watered down you must mean in terms of the relative lack of techniques designed to maim an opponent, right? but that just means that's not the primary goal of judo. if the art of judo as it is practiced today still called itself jujitsu then i would agree with you, but as you so aptly pointed out, judo is not jujitsu, and i would add, judo doesn't want to be jujitsu!

Either you understand it or you dont.

i understand, but understanding and disagreement are not mutually exclusive.

[jubaji]

the insufferable blathers on...

And the practice methods ARE watered down. Judo is NOT jujitsu. It is a sport art created so not to scare off people with threat of sustaining serious injury during practice.
Either you understand it or you dont.

The gospel according to pUke.



All non-believers will be bored to death by repetition and pissy attitude!

[BoarSpear]

combatives foster an attitude of fear and insecurity. meeting violence with stronger, more overwhelming violence is a fearful response,

Meeting violence with a weaker and less than overwhelming response is asking for an ass whoopin.
And claiming that being intelligent enough to train yourself so that you can defend yourself so that you never wind up in chains is a fearful response is well.... asinine. Read much history? It happens every freakin day, in every land.

Intelligent warriors always seek to hone their skills and improve their arsenal. Find me a culture that isn't willing to defend itself (unless they rely on someone else and thus exist at their whim) and I'll show you one being taking advantage of. Lack of weapons and an understanding of their use is the very reason many people loose their life and lands.

Because you see the world as a safe place you see the Martial arts as a hobby and a sport...to say that those who relied on them to preserve their lives and traditions did so out of fear shows a complete lack of respect for the arts your hobby came from. To say nothing of the insult to the men who trained combatives and USED them during the Second World War...this is the problem with warrior arts becoming sports... you lose the perspective and mindset to understand the thing you claim to study.

It's funny how quickly MMA fans are to forget that if they didn't have the TMA's to draw from in the first place they wouldn't have their sport to play.

To paraphrase Donn F. Draeger if an art wasn't developed by Professional warriors for use in actual warfare it isn't a Martial art at all, it's a Civil art. Civil arts are not reliable for warfare or SD as they prefer to train without weapons.

First came combative systems, then came Martial systems, last on the list to arrive were Civil arts. Remember that when you slam Combatives...

[BoarSpear]

i know judo is not jujitsu, that was kinda the thrust of a good portion of what i said, like when i said they aspire to totally different paths. the actual practice of judo is much more rigorous than the practice of jujitsu in my experience, so when you say it's watered down you must mean in terms of the relative lack of techniques designed to maim an opponent, right? but that just means that's not the primary goal of judo. if the art of judo as it is practiced today still called itself jujitsu then i would agree with you, but as you so aptly pointed out, judo is not jujitsu, and i would add, judo doesn't want to be jujitsu!

You do realize the significance of the difference in a Jutsu or Bugei art and a Budo system right?

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Meeting violence with a weaker and less than overwhelming response is asking for an ass whoopin.
And claiming that being intelligent enough to train yourself so that you can defend yourself so that you never wind up in chains is a fearful response is well.... asinine. Read much history? It happens every freakin day, in every land.

of course we train to be stronger than an opponent, but that doesn't have to translate to being more violent.

Intelligent warriors always seek to hone their skills and improve their arsenal. Find me a culture that isn't willing to defend itself (unless they rely on someone else and thus exist at their whim) and I'll show you one being taking advantage of. Lack of weapons and an understanding of their use is the very reason many people loose their life and lands.

this philosophy doesn't perclude a knowledge of weapons and their use. i want to get into a knife art myself. i'm not talking about techniques or skillsets so much as i'm talking about attitudes and mindsets.

Because you see the world as a safe place you see the Martial arts as a hobby and a sport...to say that those who relied on them to preserve their lives and traditions did so out of fear shows a complete lack of respect for the arts your hobby came from. To say nothing of the insult to the men who trained combatives and USED them during the Second World War...this is the problem with warrior arts becoming sports... you lose the perspective and mindset to understand the thing you claim to study.

I do not see the world as an inherently "safe place" i just don't see it as an inherently hostile one either. And i see the martial arts as much more than hobby or sport, judo has impacted how i see the world in many ways. i would never begrudge anyone the use of physical force to protect life and limb and that of their family and community. All i'm saying is that i would rather work hard enough that i feel safe without an uzi tucked in my waistband.

It's funny how quickly MMA fans are to forget that if they didn't have the TMA's to draw from in the first place they wouldn't have their sport to play.

is this a general comment or directed at me? 'cause i'm pure judo buddy

and i'm sorry i know these are really minimal responses, but it's way past my bedtime, i'll try again when i have my wits about me.

[DickHardman]

I told you the post was previously typed. That's why its goes on about things not in your previos post.





I suggest you re-read what has been written already. I'm not going to waste time re-writing a hundred things for you to get them. Its all here.

uke, i read what you and i dont agree with you. i dont agree that people who train in sport arts are effective only because they are in shape. they are in shape because they train hard and vigorously. i understand that a man doesn't need to be in shape to know how to defend himself, especially if he is armed. that still doesnt mean people cant use sport arts to defend themselves well.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

You do realize the significance of the difference in a Jutsu or Bugei art and a Budo system right?

i was pretty sure i had a basic grasp of the terms at least, why, is something i'm saying sounding way off base?

[BoarSpear]

of course we train to be stronger than an opponent, but that doesn't have to translate to being more violent.

Thats very Budo thinking...

this philosophy doesn't perclude a knowledge of weapons and their use. i want to get into a knife art myself. i'm not talking about techniques or skillsets so much as i'm talking about attitudes and mindsets.

Again, are you sure you understand the difference in Budo systems and Jutsu systems? Do me a favor, explain what you see the difference as.

All i'm saying is that i would rather work hard enough that i feel safe without an uzi tucked in my waistband.

An Uzi in your waistband would make you feel safe? Like I said, many a life has been lost for want of weapons and the knowledge to PROPERLY use them.

is this a general comment or directed at me? 'cause i'm pure judo buddy

Judo happens to be a Budo, (Civil art) , just like MMA and it suffers from a similar mindset, after all you're the one slamming Combatives people as driven by fear.

Again to paraphrase Draeger, Civil arts may be effective in some cases but are impractical for Military/SD purposes due to their lack of weapons training.