Nice safe world we live in...

[gregimotis]

Sounds like you've been hanging out in the law discussion forums...lol

Naw, I've just got a big brain.

[Tom Yum]

Naw, I've just got a big brain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taXkvGakRfs

[Uke]

yes, i realize this, which is why i said i would do my best. but the laws instituted by a government have nothing to do with what is right, good, fair, honorable etc. they are to keep order. often, these goals are in line with each other e.g. it is illegal to steal. stealing is wrong, but let there be no doubt in your mind, the government couldn't give a crap if it is wrong or right. at the core of it, stealing is illegal because if not, there would be chaos.
consideration for the law has absolutely zero place in the making of moral judgements.

Another excellent reply, Judo_Jibboo. What I've come to realize is that we as citizens are so conditioned to the force that the uniform represents that most will hesitate even when the time to act is right smack in front of them. This isn't always the case. When people fight back when they see injustice, the media just labels them rioters and gangs.

There have been plenty of cases where police misuse their authority, but the law AND the media will spin it so that the people always look crazy, on drugs or just out for trouble. In Indiana, police brutality had reached an unbearable level just a few years ago. The people finally had enough and fought back to a level where the police department could not contain the situation. The National Guard had to be called in.

They spun that story as if it were about looting and violence.

Here's another scenario, Judo_Jibboo.

What do you do when plain clothes cops pull out guns and don't identify themselves right away? This is a very distinct possibility and a very important side of urban combat as the police do this quite often in major cities. Do you run? Do you fight? Wouldn't you treat it like any other self defense situation especially in light of the fact that you don't know they're officers? In those situations, your reaction usually comes about within the first 3 seconds following your becoming aware of the fact that your being accosted.

In New York there is a case like that going on right now concerning the Sean Bell shooting. He left a bar with two of his friends, got in his car and attempted to drive off when men in street clothes produced guns and began shouting. When Bell panicked and tried to drive off after seeing guns produced, he collided with an unmarked police minivan, prompting the officers to fire multiple rounds into the car. No weapons or drugs were found in the car or on the passenger's person.

Anyone notice how every time the cops murder someone the victim's priors come into play and are plastered all over the media?

Anyway, what would you do in that situation? By the way the law would have us conditioned, we would allow carjackers to walk right up to us and shoot us because we weren't certain if they were undercover cops or not. And whether or not they identify themselves is a moot point unless the whole incident is videotaped with sound. If there is no evidence, the cops will ALWAYS say that they did identify themselves.

So in this scenario, where a man in street clothes approaches you, produces a firearm and points it at you all without identifying himself as a law enforcement officer, what would you do? Do you let your training kick in and disarm him and proceed to stomp him out ... which would inevitably lead to a savage beating for you if it turned out to be a cop, and an assault charge. You can't prove that he didn't identify himself, so what do you do, knowing that if he isn't a cop that you're putting your neck on the chopping block?

[gregimotis]

That actually happened to me last year.

I had come home from work, unlocked and opened my front door - then I noticed someone had come through my gate behind me. I turned around and the guy has a gun out, pointing it at my feet and ordering me onto the ground.

He was three or four feet from me, I had a knife in my pocket, and a hefty stick just inside the door. I think I must have realized he was a cop on some level because my response was to smart off: "Who the **** are you?" At which point he identified as the sheriff and we figured out that the guy he and his partner were looking for were in the next house over - they had the wrong address you see. 'Right then, we'll just be sauntering on, no hard feelings and all that.'


Well there are some hard feelings. Just as you say, any of the responses I've trained for that situation would have forced his partner to shoot me.

[Uke]

That actually happened to me last year.

I had come home from work, unlocked and opened my front door - then I noticed someone had come through my gate behind me. I turned around and the guy has a gun out, pointing it at my feet and ordering me onto the ground.

He was three or four feet from me, I had a knife in my pocket, and a hefty stick just inside the door. I think I must have realized he was a cop on some level because my response was to smart off: "Who the **** are you?" At which point he identified as the sheriff and we figured out that the guy he and his partner were looking for were in the next house over - they had the wrong address you see. 'Right then, we'll just be sauntering on, no hard feelings and all that.'


Well there are some hard feelings. Just as you say, any of the responses I've trained for that situation would have forced his partner to shoot me.

Great post based just on the personal experience and insight. Thanks for sharing that, gregimotis. Without that experience, you like many other people would probably believe that the scenario I wrote about is extreme and would probably never happen to you.

The core of the post really is "What if you hadn't hesitated? Its ashamed that if you had decided to follow through you would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, even though you had to request that the officer state his affiliation instead of him following protocol.

Also, what if the man had been a mugger? That hesitation could have cost you your life. You can thank you lucky stars that your hunch was right, but had it been wrong you might have been SOL. Also, not every criminal out there is stupid. Some pretend to be cops. Some use fake but authentic badges to gain entry. Had that man wanted to just get inside, you probably would have let him in with no protest because you were relieved to have the gun taken out of your face and happy that it was a case of mistaken identity.

Thanks again for the reply.

[gregimotis]

You're right on all counts, Uke.

The time to act when somebody has a gun is right now. I've thought about it and one good response might have been: step through the doorway into my cinder block and stucco apt, grab my whoopin stick as I go by and smash the first thing that comes through the door (meanwhile calling 911).

(One could argue that another good response might have been noticing two strangers walking up behind you, but it's easy in hindsight)

Here's another story that didn't happen to me, but did happen recently in town:

The paper reported it this way on day one:

Cops rolled up on a guy they had dealt with before (drugs etc.). He grabbed a gun and fired at officers, several shots were fired both ways before he drove away and attempted to run down an officer as he left. Cops chased him up the street where he got stuck in traffic. More gunfire exchanged, one officer was shot in the vest - cops fired 43 rounds including shotgun.

Day two: Officer struck in the vest may have been hit with friendly fire. Police are searching the area of the shootout for the suspects weapon.

Day three: No weapon has been found, all casings at the scene belong to police issue weapons. (!)

Day four: One of the first cops on the scene saw the suspect lean forward in the seat of his car and shouted over the radio that he was going for a gun. At that point the cops began shooting, and the suspect tore out of there in car (may or may not have tried to hit officer). Cops opened fire on suspect later in traffic because they believed he was a threat to civilians in the area. Suspect never had a weapon, police did all the firing.

Day five through twenty-five: Funny, doesn't seem to have made the news lately.


By the way, if it makes anyone feel safer, a group of cops fired 43 rounds at an unarmed man and hit him only twice - once in the leg and once in the hand. But they did mange to hit one of their own in the belly.

[BoarSpear]

By the way, if it makes anyone feel safer, a group of cops fired 43 rounds at an unarmed man and hit him only twice - once in the leg and once in the hand. But they did mange to hit one of their own in the belly.

From my observation of police shootings, just stand still...they cant hit what their aiming at but if you move they might accidentally hit you.

[BoarSpear]

"you used to have gumption--Boring"

Yeah thats the neg rep some little pussy left for this thread, of course the little baddass didnt have the balls to sign it.

S'all right though, we all know who the biggest pussy on the board is.

[Hardball]

From my observation of police shootings, just stand still...they cant hit what their aiming at but if you move they might accidentally hit you.

LOL, you talk like my Marine Buddy!!!

[Hardball]

"you used to have gumption--Boring"

Yeah thats the neg rep some little pussy left for this thread, of course the little baddass didnt have the balls to sign it.

S'all right though, we all know who the biggest pussy on the board is.

LOL, I've been hit twice this week with neg rep.

[BoarSpear]

LOL, I've been hit twice this week with neg rep.

Apparently too much discussion of Martial arts or warfighting makes the pansies nervous.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Another excellent reply, Judo_Jibboo. What I've come to realize is that we as citizens are so conditioned to the force that the uniform represents that most will hesitate even when the time to act is right smack in front of them.

Exactly. I've had quite a few arguments with friends over this . Societies, as Socrates pointed out and as far as i know no one has bothered to argue since, are based around delegating tasks so that each man and woman can specialize. if you have to farm your own food, build and upkeep your own house, make your own tools, weave your own clothes and on and on, then you aren't going to have much time for anything else. so we have farmers, blacksmiths, blah blah blah, and we all share and trade. The problem is, this principle has been over-extended from labour into basic human qualities. By delegating the virtues of bravery and strength to one group, i.e. cops, it is implied on a subconscious level that "that's not my job anymore." This is the state of affairs that leads to stories like we've all heard of a woman being raped an murdered in an alley in broad daylight with people walking right by.

This isn't always the case. When people fight back when they see injustice, the media just labels them rioters and gangs.

There have been plenty of cases where police misuse their authority, but the law AND the media will spin it so that the people always look crazy, on drugs or just out for trouble. In Indiana, police brutality had reached an unbearable level just a few years ago. The people finally had enough and fought back to a level where the police department could not contain the situation. The National Guard had to be called in.

They spun that story as if it were about looting and violence.

Here's another scenario, Judo_Jibboo.

What do you do when plain clothes cops pull out guns and don't identify themselves right away? This is a very distinct possibility and a very important side of urban combat as the police do this quite often in major cities. Do you run? Do you fight? Wouldn't you treat it like any other self defense situation especially in light of the fact that you don't know they're officers? In those situations, your reaction usually comes about within the first 3 seconds following your becoming aware of the fact that your being accosted.

In New York there is a case like that going on right now concerning the Sean Bell shooting. He left a bar with two of his friends, got in his car and attempted to drive off when men in street clothes produced guns and began shouting. When Bell panicked and tried to drive off after seeing guns produced, he collided with an unmarked police minivan, prompting the officers to fire multiple rounds into the car. No weapons or drugs were found in the car or on the passenger's person.

Anyone notice how every time the cops murder someone the victim's priors come into play and are plastered all over the media?

Anyway, what would you do in that situation? By the way the law would have us conditioned, we would allow carjackers to walk right up to us and shoot us because we weren't certain if they were undercover cops or not. And whether or not they identify themselves is a moot point unless the whole incident is videotaped with sound. If there is no evidence, the cops will ALWAYS say that they did identify themselves.

So in this scenario, where a man in street clothes approaches you, produces a firearm and points it at you all without identifying himself as a law enforcement officer, what would you do? Do you let your training kick in and disarm him and proceed to stomp him out ... which would inevitably lead to a savage beating for you if it turned out to be a cop, and an assault charge. You can't prove that he didn't identify himself, so what do you do, knowing that if he isn't a cop that you're putting your neck on the chopping block?

well, if i would fight uniformed cops abusing their authority, the last thing to cross my mind if i'm physically threatened would be "wait just a second there jibboo my boy, what if he's a cop?"

but you're right, this is an interesting situation. i think it's fairly clear that the cop would be in the wrong here by not identifying himself. so that answer is rather easy, but your scenario raises more important questions.
the fact that this scenario actually happens is proof of what you alluded to earlier when you said if we behaved as cops wanted us to we would let carjackers walk right up to our cars and shoot us. they want us to be meek and pliable whenever force is threatened. apparently, by their logic they shouldn't have to state that they're a cop, it's enough that they have a gun!!

i'm surprised (well, not really surprised unfortunately) that i haven't heard of this case you and gregimotis are discussing, but i just wonder, do the cops think we are retarded? they fired 43 times at a man who might have been a danger to bystanders? i think it's clear who the danger was here.

in the one intense, terrifying moment that most of us will hopefully never experience, when we need a cop for the only time in our lives, the vast likelihood is that there won't be one to be found for a mile, and you may find yourself quickly transitioning from hoping for a cop to hoping the ambulance will get there in time.
but what if every man and woman who was so inclined could carry the weapon of their choice? how many robberies would go down if the robber didn't have to look over his shoulder only to assure himself that there was no cop in sight, but had to wonder to himself if the grandma in the corner had a glock in her purse, and how fast the man a few yards away (the man with a strangely unsettling confidence to the way he carried himself) could close the distance if he happened to carry a tonfa and the will to swing it?
i can't answer that question. the world would be different, that's for sure, but more violent? less violent? filled with more or less fear than it is now? again, i can't tell you, but i can tell you for damn sure that airplanes would not be hijacked with box-cutters...

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

double posted

[Hardball]

double posted

try the edit function?

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

try the edit function?

yea i couldn't figure out how to just delete it