man shot after refusing to surrender his beer

[jubaji]

The American Civil War, as with most wars America wages was to do with business. One can become very rich with large amounts of unpaid labour at your beck and call, so all those in the rebel states who had attained affluence through exploiting the black man didn't want their free ride taken away.

Way to grossly oversimplify and misrepresent history, professor.

[gregimotis]

America's liberal use of, and love of, guns is, in my opinion, one of the single worst problems the people of the world face, including Americans.

6,000 people die in Africa of AIDS each day and 11,000 more are infected.
The reason? America loves guns.

25,000 people die of starvation every day.
The reason? America loves guns.

[Piston]

Piston,
Consider something that's not often talked about. The Civil War (and every other war throughout human history in my opinion) was indeed fought over business interests. But there were also human interests in the conflict that shouldn't be made light of. Hitler's march on the world was also for business interests, by the way. Acquisition or the protection of territory, material, wealth, and resources drive nearly all wars. Still, consider that slavery was the key public issue surrounding the Civil War. Consider that an entire cross-section of the American population at the time was made up of people torn from their homeland and forced to work American plantations under slave conditions. They were packed aboard ships, stripped of all human dignity and self-worth, and forced to work under the most abysmal labor system to which our country has ever subscribed. Even if we take that to be 100% true, you are forced by logic, reason, and common sense to answer one more question:

Once they were freed from such a bond, why did the vast majority choose to stay?

They didn't "return home" to their former lands of promise. They stayed willingly in the country that had enslaved them. Why? Maybe it was the promise of opportunity. Perhaps it was because the Union handed them guns and said, "You are free to fight for your own freedom, and if you do so, you are a citizen."

Who can say...

I totally agree with you that most, if not all war has a business aspect to it. To cite us Brits, we conquered a 1/4 of the world and became immensely wealthy off of our conquests. That said the countries we invaded benefitted as well by the British creating an infrastructure there. The Falklands war was also financially motivated, those who control the Falklands control that sea space around there, an important shipping lane.

"You are free to fight for your own freedom, and if you do so, you are a citizen." -addendum "But you'll still have to drink from different fountains from us first class people. You know, the white ones."

I think the reason a lot of former slaves in America stayed there because they had nowhere to go. Importing of slaves from Africa officially stopped in 1808, while the Civil war started in 1861. The vast majority of slaves at this time will have been born in America and into slavery, they had no home in Africa to go to and I seriously doubt they had the means to do so even if they had one.

And Jubaji I don't have the time, inclination or audience to go into the depths of something as massively complex as a civil war. Chances are your knowledge of it is greater than mine (I'm guessing you're American), so I'm not going to attempt to envelope all aspects of this particular piece of history, just the piece I feel is most relevant.

If America implemented gun control like there is in Europe then you would see the number of gun-related homicides drop dramatically. Why? Because then the large majority of the aforementioned scumbags Can't get one either. And yes there will be a black market where they can buy them but it will be on a much smaller scale. There's a difference between picking up a gun from a pawn shop and having to smuggle one in from outside the country. But then owning a gun is an allowance given by the American constitution. Fair enough but the rest of your amendmants have been revoked through the creation of the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions act, but then again rights to privacy and the Geneva Convnention don't generate as much money.

[gregimotis]

[QUOTE=Piston;271413] That said the countries we invaded benefitted as well by the British creating an infrastructure there.

Yes, and thank you so much for all that 'infrastructure' we built our damn selves.



"But you'll still have to drink from different fountains from us first class people. You know, the white ones."

Black people drink from whatever fountain they like.



...I'm not going to attempt to envelope all aspects of this particular piece of history, just the piece I feel is most relevant...

Exactly, thank you for making my point.

[Piston]

[QUOTE=gregimotis;271415]

That said the countries we invaded benefitted as well by the British creating an infrastructure there.

Yes, and thank you so much for all that 'infrastructure' we built our damn selves.

I apologise I meant a later period of conquest, more specifically in India and parts of Africa.

"But you'll still have to drink from different fountains from us first class people. You know, the white ones."

Black people drink from whatever fountain they like.

Yeah, they do now.

[Piston]

6,000 people die in Africa of AIDS each day and 11,000 more are infected.
The reason? America loves guns.

25,000 people die of starvation every day.
The reason? America loves guns.

In 2004 28,685 people died in gun-related incidents. http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html

Instead of being so obtuse perhaps you can open your mind to a different perspective.

[gregimotis]

Instead of being so obtuse perhaps you can open your mind to a different perspective.

The perspective that gun ownership in the United states is one of the greatest problems on Earth? That's idiotic on it's face.

[gregimotis]

I apologise I meant a later period of conquest, more specifically in India and parts of Africa.

No you didn't, you meant that British conquest had financial underpinnings but was also to the benefit of the conquered, whereas American military action has been a financial pursuit.

The argument is ridiculous.

[gregimotis]

In 2004 28,685 people died in gun-related incidents. http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html

Also, while I'm double posting, 28,695 / 365 = 79 per day. Nothing to be pleased about, but just a tad lower than 25,000 per day.

[Piston]

No you didn't, you meant that British conquest had financial underpinnings but was also to the benefit of the conquered, whereas American military action has been a financial pursuit.

The argument is ridiculous.

Please listen. In the case of the Americas no, British influence on the infrastructure was minimal, agreed. However in the case of other countries conquered in later periods like India, like parts of Africa the British created an infrastructure in order to bring these places out of the dark ages. This is not altruistic in any sense because having stable trading partners loyal to the state is very beneficial.

The perspective that gun ownership in the United states is one of the greatest problems on Earth? That's idiotic on it's face.

Read the rest of what I said, "America's liberal use of, and love of, guns is, in my opinion, one of the single worst problems the people of the world face, including Americans."
If you cared to read with some thought you would understand that I mean America's quickness to resort to military violence to solve its problems internationally. Like the rest of what I posted.

[jubaji]

Liberia was founded as a home for freed slaves in Africa, and former slaves travelled there as early as 1822.

Bonus round: Who was US President at the time of the founding of Liberia?

You must answer within 30 seconds of this posting for full points!

[Piston]

If all Americans had the sensibilities as you in regards to the gun and its place in peoples lives Mike, I would have no problem at all with the American right to bear arms. There will always be those who abuse that right and inflict themselves upon the weak. There will be those who use that right irresponsibly and maintain the "gung-ho" attitude. However the way you have put it is indeed enlightening, and perhaps being a person who has not grown up in a culture where having a gun is a right rather than a privelege (in one sense) I did not take that into account.

With regards to the infrastructure thing, if the places that then choose to destroy what the Brits put in place for them, deserve the socio-economic collapse they create. Palestine's borders and divisions were revised after WW2, by the UN, but was heaily influenced by America's agenda:

"I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents." President Harry Truman, quoted in "Anti Zionism", ed. by Teikener, Abed-Rabbo & Mezvinsky

I think the reason for less gun crime in Switzerland is that the Swiss populace is required to be armed, as they do not have an army, but rather a citizens militia. In Palestine I seriously doubt that gun crime is a big issue, that probably isn't that well documented. Terrorist attacks from "the other side" are most likely to be far more poigniant.

Tying all this together, we're really discussing the personal choice to submit to threats of force, or to stand and fight, regardless of consequence. Allowing a government to disarm its citizens is submission, and it places far more hope and faith in the government than I think any American is willing to invest. I think we've moved away from courage, steadfastedness, fortitude, and even character as ideals in society. Replacing them have been political correctness, capitulation, submission, and compromise. I think that's a horrible, awful thing.

This is a most admirable stance to take, and I would urge all Americans to take it, hell everyone should. But take it beyond gun control and get your civil liberties back dammit! The current government in Britain is attempting to do the same thing. Gordon Brown the soon to be new Prime Minister, Tony Blair is stepping down, wants to create a written British Constitution. As you may know, ours is unwritten, and in my mind if we get it down on paper, that means that then the government can systematically take it apart with acts similar to the Patriot Act etc.

Just an "FYI", my Dad loves his guns. He has two 12-ball shotguns, a 20-ball, air rifle, air pistol and a bayonet (family heirloom). The scary thing is he's a lawyer too, so he knows exactly when and where he's allowed too shoot someone. Woe betide the next person who breaks into that man's house.

[Thai Bri]

Ooh, you're so witty and clever.

Ooh. Yes I am!

[dogzilla]

Had to read page 2 to understood mikes brewer post on this page,...got confused a bit,...

[DickHardman]

this has been a really good thread. good job to mike and piston, i enjoyed reading your discussion.

i am all for guns. we need weapons to protect ourselves. there are many people throughout history who woke up one day and found themselves stuck in the middle of some kinda war, revolution, catastrophe, invasion, etc.... and they didnt have any weapons to fight back or defend themselves.

remember hurricane katrina? as soon as the social order broke down in the city, all kinds of bandits, gangs, robbers, and criminals started roaming the city for people to prey on. gangs of men were wandering the streets trying to find people to gang rape. homes and livelihoods were stolen and looted. if there was a catastrophe right now in your city and all hell breaks loose, do you have weapons to protect your home and family???

look at the iraqis. we disarmed many of them, and it backfired bigtime. good iraqis didnt have enough firepower to fight back against heavily armed terrorists attacking their neighborhoods. disarming large populations of iraqis let the bad guys who had guns to roll in and set up shop in their neighborhoods. parts of iraq have now become a "Disneyland for terrorists" because of this. only now is the american military realizing that arming iraqi citizens is helping curb terrorism. instead of letting terrorists get away with all their crimes and relying on americans to come help, citizens are effectively fighting back against criminals and terrorists.