The fight starts before the first strike.

[kingoftheforest]

The only problem I see this approach is that it calls the person out in front of other people and does not allow them to save face. I once saw a drunk guy start heckling my brother in a bar for no good reason. He tried to ignore the guy but I could tell it was getting on his nerves. We are half Irish and half French Canadian, and we can be.... impatient. I should set this up by saying that my brother is a decent sized guy who is good with his fists even though his only formal training was judo as a kid. He is also what you might call fearless. That's important because what he did next might not have worked if he didn't seem credible to the other guy. My brother walked over to him in a non-threatening manner, leaned over so the guy's friends couldn't hear and said, "I don't know who you are or why you have a problem with me, but if you don't knock it off, you and I are going to settle this right here, right now." The guy backed down immediately and my brother calmly walked back to our table.

Tom

See that's a form of confrontation though. That kind of comes of as a threat in itself. I can see your brothers reasoning from a perspective, but it's opposite of what we are leaning towards here.

That would be a fight escalation not deescalation. Leaving would have been a better option, or pointing him out to management or security.

Let them deal with it it's their job, that's why they're there. Telling the guy to quit or there is definitely going to be a fight doesn't really fit the avoidance theme.

I mean it's a bar the guy is being a dick. Well of course there is alcohol involved. The first tactical error your bro' made was going to a bar and not expecting there to be one obnoxious person there. But fighting because someone is being a dick really sound immature when you think about it.

From the story I hear of no physical contact or verbal threats to your brothers person, therefore it's not really an SD situation yet just a social conflict. Not trying to be offensive I just want to point out this exactly what is advised against doing in that situation.

[kingoftheforest]

Trolling much?

About de-escalation what should work in my eyes:

1) take control of the situation by letting them think that they're in control.(helped me at an armed robery ones, they got only 2 euro 50 from me while I had my phone, and around 50 euro's on me at that moment aswell as some other stuff.

2) If that doesn't work, become from the quiet following type of person into an very, very aggressive 'person'.
This either scares them off or starts the fight.

they will be shocked the very first 3 -4 seconds or so so you can either hit em there or you can keep on shouting to try to impress em enough that they either think you're mad and leave you alone or choose their safety above attacking you.(only rookies will choose their safety above attacking you though, and not "The big man of that street" or whatever they feel themselves.)

This is nonsense and I'm starting to wonder if maybe not just a little trolling involved as well.

This is also and horrifically the absolute opposite and well as nonsensical bit of advice you can give for fight deescalation.

This is the type of nonsense that gets people killed in a situation we have described.

[LtMedTB]

See that's a form of confrontation though. That kind of comes of as a threat in itself. I can see your brothers reasoning from a perspective, but it's opposite of what we are leaning towards here.

That would be a fight escalation not deescalation. Leaving would have been a better option, or pointing him out to management or security.

Let them deal with it it's their job, that's why they're there. Telling the guy to quit or there is definitely going to be a fight doesn't really fit the avoidance theme.

I didn't mean to imply it was a risk-free technique or even a good idea. You'd have to know my brother to understand why pointing the guy out to management simply isn't in his DNA. He may get his ass kicked one day. He may not. It's hard to say. What works for him may not work for someone else, and it may not always work for him. But it's my brother, and he's of a particular mind set, right or wrong.

I mean it's a bar the guy is being a dick. Well of course there is alcohol involved. The first tactical error your bro' made was going to a bar and not expecting there to be one obnoxious person there. But fighting because someone is being a dick really sound immature when you think about it.

Is it risky? Yes. Is it immature? That's completely subjective. Getting drunk and being obnoxious to people you don't know isn't a risk-free activity. Everyone has a limit, or damn near everyone. I'm no lawyer, but I occasionally read U.S. Supreme Court cases at FindLaw.com, and the courts do recognize the existance of so-called "fighting words", or words that would incite a reasonable person to fisticuffs. I'm not suggesting this element was present in this confrontation. My brother is less tolerant than what the courts would consider a "reasonable and prudent" invididual. Again, part of what makes my brother a credible threat is his fearlessness, both of physical confrontation and the consequences. In our politically correct times this is frowned upon, but in some cultures, and even in our own history, this was simpley being a man. Let me reiterate that I'm not advocating that anyone live like my brother, and I'm not suggesting that his actions were wise. In this case, however reckless or immature though it may have been, it ended the situation immediately. In its most positive sense, I see it like the American Revolutionary slogan "Don't Tread On Me". I don't advocate it, but I don't judge my brother for it either, because it's part of his nature. I should also add that my brother is a very friendly guy who makes friends easily. You can be his friend or his enemy. The choice is yours.

From the story I hear of no physical contact or verbal threats to your brothers person, therefore it's not really an SD situation yet just a social conflict. Not trying to be offensive I just want to point out this exactly what is advised against doing in that situation.

Certainly. It's like pulling a gun. Don't do it unless you're prepared to shoot and face the consequences. I do believe that sometimes you have to stand up to a bully. It's a judgement call. Think of it as a case study, and take it for what it's worth. To be honest, there are times I should have walked away, and there are times I should have fought. There is a tension between managing risk and defending your honor. Some would say that honor doesn't exist or that honor is mere ego, and defense of ego is always immature. I'm not so sure. I see some truth in both sides of it.

Thanks for the discussion!

[Tant01]

Ever seen those little tiny cans of WD-40? Ever seen what it does on an open flame?

Lets just say there are "flame wars" and then there are FLAME wars, eh? LOL

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Many times you don't actually get PHYSICAL in a confrontational situation. Often it's much easier to change their mind...

[LtMedTB]

Advice from a law professor

I found this at the Dog Brothers forum.

"Don't Talk to the Police" by Professor James Duane

For U.S. citizens who interact with the police.

[jubaji]

Easy Tant. You start going off about WD-40, and the next thing you know, TTE will come trotting up to tell you how igniting someone is a cowardly tactic, and that WD-40 is known to the State of California to cause cancer in lab rats so your tactic is akin to poisoning them.
...)

TTExcrement is probably using WD-40 to oil up his cult leader's ponytail as we speak!

[kingoftheforest]

That's a good one.

Hey if somebody attacks you at the hair dresser's while you're walking your beat in the mall, grab that hairspray, and the zippo you use to chain smoke your worries away.

And nail that sum biotch with a flame. It's as good as stabbing him in the eye with a pen and you don't have to get close.

Although the local authorities may find it a bit overkill, so if you don't want to do 10-20 for inhumane man slaughter/torture you might want to rethink it.

Wouldn't want to loose your security clearance at JCPenny's.

I just love screwin' with you boys.

[Guest]

I just love screwin' with you boys.

The Michael Jackson legal team are forced to consider a guilty plea

[kingoftheforest]

The Michael Jackson legal team are forced to consider a guilty plea

Naw it says you boys not young boys.

[kingoftheforest]

If I "loose" it, I could always just tighten it again anyway. Losing it, on the other hand, would require them to give one in the first place. I don't think anyone at JCPenney's thought that far ahead. After all...

They hired me and put me in charge!

Talk about your classic examples of bad judgement in action.

I say do what you can with what you have. Bash them with a rock, light their hair on fire, or fling a maggot-infested roadkill at them. If it's a fight - it's all fair. I never called foul when people tried to run me over with their cars. It's the tool they had and the best tactic with which to use it. I just tried to take my fair share out of the hood, mirrors, windows, and windshields. Likewise, I was never opposed to using my own available tools, like throwing a guy down an escalator. It's toothy and sharp and it just sucks the fight right out of most people to go tumbling down the escalator. I like when people have no fight in them, so stairs and escalators were good tools. It's what gave rise to one of my all time favorite catch-phrases:

People are like Slinkys. They're not really useful for a whole lot, but they sure are fun to watch when you pitch them down the steps.

That's 100% mall ninja material right there baby. And the legend is revealed and still lives on.

Gotta love it. Thanks for playing.

This guy could give us all some pointers.

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

[Tant01]

Good advise!

I found this at the Dog Brothers forum.

"Don't Talk to the Police" by Professor James Duane

For U.S. citizens who interact with the police.

As long as you have the right to remain silent... No sense in giving up that right if you ask me... But then, I'm no professor of law.

[kingoftheforest]

As long as you have the right to remain silent... No sense in giving up that right if you ask me... But then, I'm no professor of law.

Yeah especially if you get arrested at the mall.

You may have the right to be thrown down some stairs if you say the wrong thing.

It's all in good fun Tant just some jokes among friends.

[TTEscrima]

Easy Tant. You start going off about WD-40, and the next thing you know, TTE will come trotting up to tell you how igniting someone is a cowardly tactic, and that WD-40 is known to the State of California to cause cancer in lab rats so your tactic is akin to poisoning them.

(By the way, that's how you get a conflict going. De-escalation will come later. I just wanted to make a point about "fighting words" for a moment, so now we can kick back and wait for the show...)

I heard you were still hung up on me, Jesus Christ man, get a life.

Not unless you pull a Mike Brewer with it and assault customers at the establishment you were employed. I know quite a few women who managed to bar tend for years safely without resorting to poisoning the customers. I guess they were more capable at handling trouble makers than you. I'm sure you just think they weren't baddass enough to be a criminal like you. Leave me out of your BS, mkay fantasy boy. I've read enough of the forum and your posts to see Boars point, you post your BS here where it's safe because you get laughed off everywhere else don't you Mos97B.

[TTEscrima]

Hey if somebody attacks you at the hair dresser's while you're walking your beat in the mall, grab that hairspray, and the zippo you use to chain smoke your worries away.

And nail that sum biotch with a flame. It's as good as stabbing him in the eye with a pen and you don't have to get close.

At least you'd actually be able to reach over the counter with the hairspray, LOL.

[Tant01]

Pesky mosquitos...

Yeah especially if you get arrested at the mall.

You may have the right to be thrown down some stairs if you say the wrong thing.

It's all in good fun Tant just some jokes among friends.

Deterants come in all sizes and shapes. The best (in my opinion) are improvised to adapt to a given situation. Stairs are good! (well gravity actually)

Changing someone's mind is as easy as mutual assured destruction.

You might throw me down the stairs but by golly, you're comming with me. LOL

Nothing like torching the wings off an insect to make it easy to stomp...

(Just saying..)

Proving premeditation can be more difficult if it appears impulsive...

I should borrow your disclaimer KOTF...