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  • The fight starts before the first strike.

    A few of the recent threads here and on other forums have gotten a great deal of ideas and concepts swimming in my head so I felt it best to write them out and share them. I understand that we all view things from diffrent perspectives here and that is why this is a discussion board. I thought I would put them forward for the forums to view so that we could get diffrent perspectives on these things. If the whole world saw everything the same way it would be a very boring place. So instead of just talking about what to do IN a fight I decided to think on what to do to AVOID a fight, since a fight won without fists knees and kicks is much better for all than one that lands several people in the ER. So with out further ado here I go..................................................................................................


    The first step in any SD situation should be to attempt to deescalate the encounter. I have had this idea on my mind for quite awhile and have decided to start a thread on people's ideas of how to deescalate an SD situation or defuse it so it does not come to blows.

    First and foremost let me point out that awareness in the most important tool in any situation SD or otherwise. You should always be aware of your surroundings and the people around you.

    Second some SD situations are unavoidable and cannot be stopped with anything less than violence equal to the violence perpetrated by the assailant. Such as a mugging, a home invasion, or a rape.

    Now as noted above awareness is a key ingredient in any SD situation, If you are aware of what is going on around you, you can be prepared for most altercations. If you are in a parking lot make sure to be aware of the cars around you. Don't daydream or stare at the ground while walking. The fact that there may be moving vehicles around you alone should be enough for you to pay attention.

    The time of day does not dictate when altercations will occur. Muggings can happen any time of day. People have been kidnapped in broad daylight. So awareness is a full time job.

    Most situations have precursors before the attack. Such as the examples we have heard of people harassing you in a club or other public place. You have to remember that you really have no idea what your assailants is willing or ready to do to you. Most situations start with verbal abuse and "smack talk".
    Remember as a civilized adult talk is just that talk. People can say whatever they want to you. Most of the time talk serves two purposes for an assailant.

    1. It helps them to ramp themselves up, or "pump" themselves up to attack you. Kind of like self motivation, getting geared up for the fight they hope to provoke.
    2. It is meant to intimidate you and disarm you. They hope to get you angry so you will throw the first punch at them. This will cause problems for you since verbal abuse is not seen as a good reason to attack anyone, especially by Law Enforcement. Saying
    'He was talking about my wife/girlfriend, or momma" is not going to put the Law on your side should you attack someone. And throwing the first punch without being threatened with a weapon or attacked by Lawful definition is assault.

    The initial response to someone "talking smack" should be to ignore them and attempt to remove yourself from the situation. This does not always work in that some assailants are persistent and will follow you.

    Let me clarify here that leaving to a place with less people in it i.e. going to your car in a parking lot. Is a bad idea. People are less likely to attack you when others are around. Just walk away but never let your assailant out of your sight. Turning your back is never a good idea in a potentially volatile situation.

    This does not always work however. If attempting to remove yourself from the situation is not an option or the assailant follows you, then your next step should be to seek the proper help. In clubs and bars it is always a good idea to approach security and advise them of the situation. You have to do this professionally because security doesn't care who started it and it is always going to have two sides to any story. Saying things like "Hey man this mutha fucka came up and started talking shit to me now he won't leave me alone....."
    Or "I'm gonna knock this asshole out if you guys don't do something first." Are not ways to endear yourself to security.

    Things like "Excuse me Sir I was just over there minding my own business having a drink with some friends when this gentleman came up and began verbally harassing me. I have no problem sorting out what is going on with him however he seems extremely irate at the moment."

    Also offering to leave the club while security keeps the assailant under a watchful eye so that you can make it to your vehicle safely is a good suggestion and normally accommodated by security in most clubs.

    If on the street it is a good idea to find the nearest LEO or an establishment where you can reach one from. This in no way makes you less of a man or a "pussy" as the term is used. This makes you an intelligent human being.

    Another way of handling a situation before it becomes violent is to try and verbally assuage the assailant. Using words to disarm an assailant is I feel one of the safest forms of defense you have just behind awareness. It's called being the bigger man. Let's say you are out somewhere and a guy feels that you have been "eying his girl" which seemed to be very common when I was bouncing.

    Comments like "Get over yourself man. she doesn't look that great" or "F*ck off who'd want to look at that skank" are not methods to avoid physical confrontation.
    Things like "I apologize if you thought I was doing that Sir, you obviously have a lovely lady there,but I was just staring into space."
    or "I apologize if it seemed that way but I would never disrespect another man by doing that." Using a polite and friendly tone when saying these things can usaully provide someone with the information that you are NOT looking for a fight. If the situation continues to escalate which it may being that some people just like to start fights for the hell of it you may still have a chance to cancel out the argument with talk.

    Saying things like "I'm sorry I'd rather this not turn physical" or "We both really don't want any trouble, we're all here just trying to have some fun." are examples of things to say in these situations.

    Some situations are going to escalate no matter what you say or do into a physical confrontation. There are unfortunately people who go out just to pick fights. It's a matter of personal judgment as to when something is going to come to blows. Remember though throwing the first punch can paint you as an assailant in most SD situation. Law enforcement in most states do not warrant verbal abuse as means to attack someone. There is a very gray area in that respect however and once again I understand that if someone feels cornered or in trouble you must react to a situation. Being in front of a judge is better than being in front of THE judge.

    However in these situations it has been pointed out by various members on this forum that body language and posture of your assailant can tell you what may be coming. Awareness of these things are keys to help you react to an attack. If someone throws up their "set" or takes a stance or guard I feel that ius enough to tell me how committed he is to wanting physicality and there fore I will react to this with a defensive movement. Defensive doesn't necessarily mean guarding from an attack sometimes the best defense is a good offense. Just like in chess if you open with the wrong piece it may not take an opponents piece off the board but you may have just set yourself up for a loss with that one move. Most of us here train and can understand that concept without elaborating. Besides that's why we have threads and not posts that no one can reply too.

    Now these are all just general concepts and a vague shading of ideas and situations. It is good to think through and train for many types as well as discuss them. That way when the pop quiz comes in the real world you are already prepared to deal with it. It's hard to get the answer from someone else when a gorilla is breathing down your neck.

    It is always better to try to avoid a confrontation rather than provoke it. People can say what they want about your character and "bravery" but many brave people have been killed in the street for not handling something in a logical and sensible way. If you make it home alive and in one piece evryday I count that as a victory more so than if you arrive home via the ER. Some situations cannot be avoided but we all know fighting is violent and harmful to everyone involved and avoiding the situations we can makes us all better martial artists and fighters.

  • #2
    Deleted Deleted

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by kingoftheforest View Post
      A few of the recent threads here and on other forums have gotten a great deal of ideas and concepts swimming in my head so I felt it best to write them out and share them. I understand that we all view things from diffrent perspectives here and that is why this is a discussion board. I thought I would put them forward for the forums to view so that we could get diffrent perspectives on these things. If the whole world saw everything the same way it would be a very boring place. So instead of just talking about what to do IN a fight I decided to think on what to do to AVOID a fight, since a fight won without fists knees and kicks is much better for all than one that lands several people in the ER. So with out further ado here I go..................................................................................................


      The first step in any SD situation should be to attempt to deescalate the encounter. I have had this idea on my mind for quite awhile and have decided to start a thread on people's ideas of how to deescalate an SD situation or defuse it so it does not come to blows.

      First and foremost let me point out that awareness in the most important tool in any situation SD or otherwise. You should always be aware of your surroundings and the people around you.

      Second some SD situations are unavoidable and cannot be stopped with anything less than violence equal to the violence perpetrated by the assailant. Such as a mugging, a home invasion, or a rape.

      Now as noted above awareness is a key ingredient in any SD situation, If you are aware of what is going on around you, you can be prepared for most altercations. If you are in a parking lot make sure to be aware of the cars around you. Don't daydream or stare at the ground while walking. The fact that there may be moving vehicles around you alone should be enough for you to pay attention.

      The time of day does not dictate when altercations will occur. Muggings can happen any time of day. People have been kidnapped in broad daylight. So awareness is a full time job.

      Most situations have precursors before the attack. Such as the examples we have heard of people harassing you in a club or other public place. You have to remember that you really have no idea what your assailants is willing or ready to do to you. Most situations start with verbal abuse and "smack talk".
      Remember as a civilized adult talk is just that talk. People can say whatever they want to you. Most of the time talk serves two purposes for an assailant.

      1. It helps them to ramp themselves up, or "pump" themselves up to attack you. Kind of like self motivation, getting geared up for the fight they hope to provoke.
      2. It is meant to intimidate you and disarm you. They hope to get you angry so you will throw the first punch at them. This will cause problems for you since verbal abuse is not seen as a good reason to attack anyone, especially by Law Enforcement. Saying
      'He was talking about my wife/girlfriend, or momma" is not going to put the Law on your side should you attack someone. And throwing the first punch without being threatened with a weapon or attacked by Lawful definition is assault.

      The initial response to someone "talking smack" should be to ignore them and attempt to remove yourself from the situation. This does not always work in that some assailants are persistent and will follow you.

      Let me clarify here that leaving to a place with less people in it i.e. going to your car in a parking lot. Is a bad idea. People are less likely to attack you when others are around. Just walk away but never let your assailant out of your sight. Turning your back is never a good idea in a potentially volatile situation.

      This does not always work however. If attempting to remove yourself from the situation is not an option or the assailant follows you, then your next step should be to seek the proper help. In clubs and bars it is always a good idea to approach security and advise them of the situation. You have to do this professionally because security doesn't care who started it and it is always going to have two sides to any story. Saying things like "Hey man this mutha fucka came up and started talking shit to me now he won't leave me alone....."
      Or "I'm gonna knock this asshole out if you guys don't do something first." Are not ways to endear yourself to security.

      Things like "Excuse me Sir I was just over there minding my own business having a drink with some friends when this gentleman came up and began verbally harassing me. I have no problem sorting out what is going on with him however he seems extremely irate at the moment."

      Also offering to leave the club while security keeps the assailant under a watchful eye so that you can make it to your vehicle safely is a good suggestion and normally accommodated by security in most clubs.

      If on the street it is a good idea to find the nearest LEO or an establishment where you can reach one from. This in no way makes you less of a man or a "pussy" as the term is used. This makes you an intelligent human being.

      Another way of handling a situation before it becomes violent is to try and verbally assuage the assailant. Using words to disarm an assailant is I feel one of the safest forms of defense you have just behind awareness. It's called being the bigger man. Let's say you are out somewhere and a guy feels that you have been "eying his girl" which seemed to be very common when I was bouncing.

      Comments like "Get over yourself man. she doesn't look that great" or "F*ck off who'd want to look at that skank" are not methods to avoid physical confrontation.
      Things like "I apologize if you thought I was doing that Sir, you obviously have a lovely lady there,but I was just staring into space."
      or "I apologize if it seemed that way but I would never disrespect another man by doing that." Using a polite and friendly tone when saying these things can usaully provide someone with the information that you are NOT looking for a fight. If the situation continues to escalate which it may being that some people just like to start fights for the hell of it you may still have a chance to cancel out the argument with talk.

      Saying things like "I'm sorry I'd rather this not turn physical" or "We both really don't want any trouble, we're all here just trying to have some fun." are examples of things to say in these situations.

      Some situations are going to escalate no matter what you say or do into a physical confrontation. There are unfortunately people who go out just to pick fights. It's a matter of personal judgment as to when something is going to come to blows. Remember though throwing the first punch can paint you as an assailant in most SD situation. Law enforcement in most states do not warrant verbal abuse as means to attack someone. There is a very gray area in that respect however and once again I understand that if someone feels cornered or in trouble you must react to a situation. Being in front of a judge is better than being in front of THE judge.

      However in these situations it has been pointed out by various members on this forum that body language and posture of your assailant can tell you what may be coming. Awareness of these things are keys to help you react to an attack. If someone throws up their "set" or takes a stance or guard I feel that ius enough to tell me how committed he is to wanting physicality and there fore I will react to this with a defensive movement. Defensive doesn't necessarily mean guarding from an attack sometimes the best defense is a good offense. Just like in chess if you open with the wrong piece it may not take an opponents piece off the board but you may have just set yourself up for a loss with that one move. Most of us here train and can understand that concept without elaborating. Besides that's why we have threads and not posts that no one can reply too.

      Now these are all just general concepts and a vague shading of ideas and situations. It is good to think through and train for many types as well as discuss them. That way when the pop quiz comes in the real world you are already prepared to deal with it. It's hard to get the answer from someone else when a gorilla is breathing down your neck.

      It is always better to try to avoid a confrontation rather than provoke it. People can say what they want about your character and "bravery" but many brave people have been killed in the street for not handling something in a logical and sensible way. If you make it home alive and in one piece evryday I count that as a victory more so than if you arrive home via the ER. Some situations cannot be avoided but we all know fighting is violent and harmful to everyone involved and avoiding the situations we can makes us all better martial artists and fighters.
      Good stuff, KOTF. I agree with what is said here.

      Comment


      • #4
        Praise from a hedge hog

        Thanks Tom I appreciate that a lot.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by darrianation View Post
          Everyone talks about being alert/aware and many people say to themselves “That would never happen to me because I’m aware and alert”. But the fact is no one can maintain a high level of awareness for very long and we are all vulnerable at times and that even goes for elite operators (anyone can be caught of guard).

          I agree but at the same time you don't have to be on HIGH alert all the time. Just paying attention when you are out is enough. Instead of daydreaming or looking at some chicks ass for 10 minutes, look at her ass for 30 seconds it will still look the same 5 minutes from now and you can be paying attention to what's going on. To the extreme my mother in law would try to read while she drove. She told me about this with a life and I couldn't help but get a little bit more than irate with her. I have seen people walking around staring at their shoelaces in a crowded mall or parking lot. Not a good idea, these people aren't on any kind of alert. They are on auto pilot.



          Originally posted by darrianation View Post
          Sometimes de-escalation can work especially in situations where the encounter is ego driven however in those situations where it is purely “crime” driven or worse a terrorist or madman who simply wants to kill you in the name of Allah or because the voices in his head say so I doubt de-escalation holds a lot of real value.

          Did de-escalation work at Columbine, the SLT mall shooting, VA tech, or the haji shooting up vehicles at the traffic light outside of CIA headquarters?

          I agree as in the below quotes. Some situations are only going to be handled by local LEO's or even S.W.A.T. teams. But we should also be aware of our responsibility to find a way out of these kinds of extreme situations without confronting the attackers. I was posting more on everyday types of confrontations. These types of things while prominent in the news are not going to be situations we would handle on a regular basis in our daily lives. It is good that you brought these up but I'm hoping to keep it on a simpler scale.

          Originally posted by kingoftheforest View Post
          Some situations are going to escalate no matter what you say or do into a physical confrontation. There are unfortunately people who go out just to pick fights. It's a matter of personal judgment as to when something is going to come to blows.
          Originally posted by kingoftheforest View Post
          Some situations cannot be avoided but we all know fighting is violent and harmful to everyone involved and avoiding the situations we can makes us all better martial artists and fighters.


          Originally posted by darrianation View Post
          Some of you may live in a non-permissive society such as New York City or the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia where you are restricted from certain rights of self-defense. My suggestion to you is get a visa and immigrate to the Untied States where the right to live free and to defend yourself against scum-of-the earth-thugs is still held sacred (for the time being anyway).
          Some people can't afford to just up and move because law makers where they live are pompous assholes or the people who vote in their area outnumber security over common sense. When you outlaw a weapon then only the outlaws are armed. However people in these areas can and will seek options and alternatives. If everyone moved just because they didn't like the laws where they lived then nobody would live anywhere. We'd all be trying to find a way to the moon. Necessity is the mother of all invention and people will continue to come up with ways to defend themselves from criminals. This whole thread was started with that in mind. The first step should always be to try and end a fight before it starts.


          If someone wants to call you a pussy for that then ask people who knew Alex Gong would it have been better for him to just have called the police and reported his car stolen? Was his car's value greater than his life's. The main thing is getting home to the one's we love. I have a 11 month old son waiting for me and he had no choice or say so on how and when he came into this world. That was a responsibility I took on at a certain point in my life. It is also now my responsibility to make sure within my power that I am here to teach him and help him grow to be a man. If I get killed in some bullshit altercation in the Wal-Mart parking lot because I was too much of a "Man" to back down, than I have just disrespected him and my wife and everyone I have left behind with the burden of filling my gap in his life.

          Thanks for the info Darrian some good stuff in there. And some good talking points.

          Comment


          • #6
            Excellent point KOTF and i agree with Darrianation about there being times where there is no solution other than violence.
            DOnt agree on the move to new york thing to carry a gun, ive never needed for a gun in 30 years and dont expect to ever.

            besides a gun will only save you 1 on 1. if its you against 3 or 4 armed guys then a gun will just make them more likely to shoot you if they suspect you are armed.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by kingoftheforest View Post
              If someone wants to call you a pussy for that then ask people who knew Alex Gong would it have been better for him to just have called the police and reported his car stolen? Was his car's value greater than his life's.
              His car wasn't stolen - I believe someone crashed into it? Agreed. He could have just as easily gotten the license plate of the car, called the police to report the accident and gotten back to his training.


              Originally posted by kingoftheforest View Post
              The main thing is getting home to the one's we love. I have a 11 month old son waiting for me and he had no choice or say so on how and when he came into this world. That was a responsibility I took on at a certain point in my life. It is also now my responsibility to make sure within my power that I am here to teach him and help him grow to be a man. If I get killed in some bullshit altercation in the Wal-Mart parking lot because I was too much of a "Man" to back down, than I have just disrespected him and my wife and everyone I have left behind with the burden of filling my gap in his life.

              Thanks for the info Darrian some good stuff in there. And some good talking points.
              A homeless man asked me for change. I politely told him no. He engaged in more conversation, which I sensed was really an interview. My response again was polite, which he probably interpreted as weakness?

              He proceeded to follow me as I made my way to my car. I started moving faster. We exchanged a few words at about a 6-7 foot distance - can't remember what I said, but his was hostile. He was sizing me up and watching my body language (as I was him, except I was also paying attention to his hands). Guy was black, late 40's to early 50's about 6'1" maybe 150 lbs tops

              From what I sensed, this guy was a real criminal and was kinda hard, mean looking. The kind that punches elderly folks for their jewelry. I pulled out a 3" blade in my rear hand, with a reverse grip (and kept my front hand out in front to parry or strike if I had to) I'm about 3 feet away from my car, which has an 18" 4-lb maglite. Sad to say I wasn't packing.

              I started to verbally rip back into the guy - guy is still about 5 1/2 feet away - stops, starts back stepping and walking the opposite direction a little faster. He goes back to the corner that he was on when he asked me for change - looking for business elsewhere?

              In my opinion I handled this well, but from you guys who instruct LEO was this the right thing to do?

              I basically yelled at the guy something to the extent of back the f*ck up or get cut, loose parts etc.; I think I might have said a few more graphic things too, which is not a side of me that many get to see.

              The feeling I got from this guy wasn't like someone was just gonna try to beat my ass down over bullshit, this felt like some dude was gonna try and leave me for dead and run off with whatever he could forcibly take! I thought about going back to that dude's street corner and leave him for the police/ambulance, but the better man got a hold of me and I drove away. Who knows, he could have hommies nearby, all armed to the teeth - it could have just as easily been bad for me?

              Another thing I thought of as I was driving home, was snapping a picture of the dude with my cam phone for evidence and filing a police report with it.
              Last edited by Tom Yum; 09-09-2007, 01:33 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Yo man can I get a dollar?

                Originally posted by Tom Yum View Post
                His car wasn't stolen - I believe someone crashed into it? Agreed. He could have just as easily gotten the license plate of the car, called the police to report the accident and gotten back to his training.
                I apologize Sir you are 100% correct. It was in fact a hit and run. And you are also correct he could have stilled handled the situation more logically. Things like this are why we have insurance.


                Originally posted by Tom Yum View Post
                In my opinion I handled this well, but from you guys who instruct LEO was this the right thing to do?

                I basically yelled at the guy something to the extent of back the f*ck up or get cut, loose parts etc.; I think I might have said a few more graphic things too, which is not a side of me that many get to see.
                Under the circumstance I think you handled it quite well. Stress brings out the nasty side in all of us. If you felt that you were about to be harmed it's always a good idea to set up any security measure you can have for yourself. I tend to deal with the homeless people around here without profanity however. The ABC liquor lounge is right next to the MC D's and auto parts store so we have to get near them sometimes to get what we need. I tend to try to use an authoritative voice and say things like "Sir could you please back up a littel so I can see your hands." Don't make it sound like a question though. Most of the transients think you may be a cop at this point and they back off. I had one actually ask me if I was one. Another good one is "Sir if you continue to make threatening moves and comments to me I will defend myself with necessary force".

                Just letting some people know you are at least mentally willing to hurt them if they attack you can deter them from doing it. As Darrian said some people are more willing than others and sometimes you just can't stop them. But this is definitely one of those cases were it didn't hurt to try, literally.



                Originally posted by Tom Yum View Post
                Another thing I thought of as I was driving home, was snapping a picture of the dude with my cam phone for evidence and filing a police report with it.

                The thing about this is you would have to be fairly close to get a good enough picture and most likely law enforcement has been called about this guy at least twice a week. So unfortunately on the police priority scale unless he physically assaulted you he'd just be a low man on the totem pole and they may or may not look into it. Sometimes the world's a shitty place like that. I'd say if you see him out there again report him as a pan handler since it is illegal in I believe all states. He can have a sign as long as he and it don't specifically ask for money.

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