The fight starts before the first strike.

[Tant01]

Too bad there wasn't more participation in this thread when it was posted.

I guess it isn't a subject people consider.

With all due respect, I emphasize the moral and ethical implications of personal combat fairly often.

Then there are the legal issues. While I often think few martial artists really embrace or understand all the potential complications of "self defense" the truth is it really can't be stressed enough. Nothing like going to prison for life to test your martial skills, eh?

LOL

If the opportunity presents itself I'm not one to run away from calamity if I can prevent harm or eliminate a serious threat to (human) safety.

Go for it! Knock yourself out! Bring it... Etc...

It could be said that my attitude holds a certain malevolence but I don't really care what the sheep think. SOME people are animals and should be dispatched with all haste and no hesitation.

The only way you can be prepared to do the deed is if you consider all the circumstances before hand that might justify such a response...

IMHO For what it's worth...

[kingoftheforest]

With all due respect, I emphasize the moral and ethical implications of personal combat fairly often.

Then there are the legal issues. While I often think few martial artists really embrace or understand all the potential complications of "self defense" the truth is it really can't be stressed enough. Nothing like going to prison for life to test your martial skills, eh?

LOL

If the opportunity presents itself I'm not one to run away from calamity if I can prevent harm or eliminate a serious threat to (human) safety.

Go for it! Knock yourself out! Bring it... Etc...

It could be said that my attitude holds a certain malevolence but I don't really care what the sheep think. SOME people are animals and should be dispatched with all haste and no hesitation.

The only way you can be prepared to do the deed is if you consider all the circumstances before hand that might justify such a response...

IMHO For what it's worth...

I can't say I'm not in 100% agreement with you Tant.

But in my defense I don't consider you people.

I consider you a friend.

[darrianation]

Deleted Deleted

[kingoftheforest]

Prison or Death

While legal issue are a very real concern, if someone is firing random shots into a crowded mall death is a very real concern as well.

I've said it before and I'll say it again....

No one has ever gotten out of a grave on parole or had a shortened death for good behavior.

[kingoftheforest]

No argument here.

That's great advice there. It's got a nifty acronym name that's easy to remember and it helps people to have a mental check list.

That's a great example that supports the awareness structure of fight avoidance like a granite pillar.

Thanks for a great post Mike.

Now I think you need to get repped soon as I can spread the disease again.

[kingoftheforest]

" "Next time, they won't get away with my Creedence tapes."

Funny story. I was having a really bad week and I met this chick at the mall. I was single and about 21 at the time. We decided after she got off work we'd go to the dollar theater next door. We both agreed we were kinda broke so it was good.

Things are going good right. Well she told her friend I'd give her a ride home and off we go.

So after the movie (The General's Daughter) we come out and lo and behold my frickin car was stolen.

Some one took it for a joy ride and when I got it back

THOSE BASTARDS STOLE MY BEST OF CREDENCE TAPE

Man it had all the good ones. Fortunate Son, Proud Mary, Sweet Hitchhiker.

They took a bunch of tools I had too but damn man they took my Credence tape!!!!

Honest to god I was more pissed about the tapes than the 3 busted windows.

I had an alarm and even parked close to the building. But it was 11pm when we got out.

Oh well I'd have had to buy the CD eventually.

Now where is that CD ...........................................................................

[kingoftheforest]

THAT'S AWESOME!

I made the comment as a reference to the Big Lebowski, but the fact that it actually happened to you is...oh, sorry...tragic, man. Really tragic.

Tell you what. PM me your address and I'll send you the Best of Creedence - on the house. I just happen to have an extra copy I found in some guy's car in a Mall parking lot.

.........................................................................

I bet you used to listen to it on your Segway

[LtMedTB]

Just to add a little light-hearted humor, I ran across this on YouTube tonight and I thought it was funny.

YouTube - Preemtive - Inspired by Bush Doctrine

Tom

[FatOldDude]

A lot of good advice and philosophy in this thread. When I trained with a former cop years back, he taught this idea as well, that the fight starts way before the first blows.

On the topic of using talk to defuse tense situations, he recommended this:
Verbal Judo Institute

[Tant01]

Good on you!

Just to add a little light-hearted humor, I ran across this on YouTube tonight and I thought it was funny.

[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ywqo1c7y5NM&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ywqo1c7y5NM&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]
Tom

Hehehehehe! That's a riot! LOL TY Needed some humor today! Such a serious thread!

[kingoftheforest]

Holy Crap

That's awesome. That has to be the funniest thing I've seen MA related since the
Get In My Guard video that was posted.

[Durete]

About de-escalation what should work in my eyes:

1) take control of the situation by letting them think that they're in control.(helped me at an armed robery ones, they got only 2 euro 50 from me while I had my phone, and around 50 euro's on me at that moment aswell as some other stuff.

2) If that doesn't work, become from the quiet following type of person into an very, very aggressive 'person'.
This either scares them off or starts the fight.

they will be shocked the very first 3 -4 seconds or so so you can either hit em there or you can keep on shouting to try to impress em enough that they either think you're mad and leave you alone or choose their safety above attacking you.(only rookies will choose their safety above attacking you though, and not "The big man of that street" or whatever they feel themselves.)

[LtMedTB]

About de-escalation what should work in my eyes:

1) take control of the situation by letting them think that they're in control.(helped me at an armed robery ones, they got only 2 euro 50 from me while I had my phone, and around 50 euro's on me at that moment aswell as some other stuff.

2) If that doesn't work, become from the quiet following type of person into an very, very aggressive 'person'.
This either scares them off or starts the fight.

they will be shocked the very first 3 -4 seconds or so so you can either hit em there or you can keep on shouting to try to impress em enough that they either think you're mad and leave you alone or choose their safety above attacking you.(only rookies will choose their safety above attacking you though, and not "The big man of that street" or whatever they feel themselves.)

The only problem I see this approach is that it calls the person out in front of other people and does not allow them to save face. I once saw a drunk guy start heckling my brother in a bar for no good reason. He tried to ignore the guy but I could tell it was getting on his nerves. We are half Irish and half French Canadian, and we can be.... impatient. I should set this up by saying that my brother is a decent sized guy who is good with his fists even though his only formal training was judo as a kid. He is also what you might call fearless. That's important because what he did next might not have worked if he didn't seem credible to the other guy. My brother walked over to him in a non-threatening manner, leaned over so the guy's friends couldn't hear and said, "I don't know who you are or why you have a problem with me, but if you don't knock it off, you and I are going to settle this right here, right now." The guy backed down immediately and my brother calmly walked back to our table.

Tom

[Durete]

mje I guess that everything works different for everyone else.
People normally think I'm an easy target due to that I'm not too big and very very thin.

That's why they normally do not wish to stop and lose their face in front of their friends or whatever.

If the first thing just doesn't achieve my goal I just go to the 2e what I said,
People do not expect any aggresivity from me at all.
or that I start any fight,
so that surprise works for me.

Even though I don't care mostly if I end up in an fight or not, just since of my size people don't expect that and just keep in mind "Small, thin, hah he can't do shit". so any threats like that will just get some laugh's back mostly

[kingoftheforest]

RBSD in a realistic view.

Here's a link to and some excerpts from an interview with Richard Dimitri.

But first a little info on the guy.

Richard Dimitri is the owner and founder of Senshido. Based out of Canada, Mr. Dimitri is a reality-based instructor who has taught law enforcement officers, security personnel, film stars, bodyguards, amateur fighters, as well as people from all walks of life.

He has been published in Black Belt magazine as well as producing 25 instructional tapes to date. His personal protection manual In Total Defense of Self has been heralded as one of the best works of its kind.
Richard Dimitri is considered one of the top instructors in his field.

Richard Dimitri

Here he is dispelling some myths on RBSD. I'm not saying that some RBSD schools aren't the paranoia agents that the stereo type came from, but this is the impression I have had with most of the school philosophy.

#4 Tell us a little bit about Senshido's training methodology.

[Richard Dimitri] Hmmm... where to begin? The first thing we do is help re-define an individual's belief system into one that is more congruous to their objectives of survival. We then impart them with the necessary skills (profiling, situational and environmental awareness, intuitive radar, pre contact cues and indicators, tactical threat assessments etc.) to avoid a potential threat or confrontation. Then we arm them with precontact psychology (fear and stress management, adrenal stress condition, physiological and biological results, enhancing perception time, decreasing reaction time, etc.) in order not to necessarily move 'faster' than the opponent, but earlier. The third step is the physical portion, we cover all ranges of combat (contrary to popular belief, we're not all about eye gouges and groin strikes). We rely heavily on athletic ability, conditioning the students through functional combative strength training. We cover tool and target development in the kicking, boxing, close quarter combat, grappling and ground fighting game. I separate grappling and ground fighting because you can grapple standing up. All the ranges are then worked together through (if I may quote Matt Thornton here) 'alive' drills, sparring and scenario based training. I fundamentally believe in Matt's approach at training 'alive'. If you're not sweating, bleeding, invoking stress on a physical, psychological and emotional level in your training, then you are not training for reality. The last step (not necessarily in training time but for explanation purposes) is to teach them the legalities of their actions. It is important to look at the legal, moral and ethical aspects of self preservation as you don't want to end up being someone's bitch in prison because you put some drunk in a coma through excessive force. The aftermath of a fight is equally important... will your 'opponent' seek revenge? Did the fight occur in your neighborhood? Was the individual 'connected'? Were there witnesses? Do you know how to talk to a LEO? A lawyer? Have you ever spent a night in the tank? Do you have a record? Do you know how long a record lasts and its effects when looking for employment or wishing to leave the country for a simple vacation? All these are integral factors....


Here's something about scenario based training that falls pretty much on the mark with all the instructors I've had.

#5 On your website and forum you always stress the importance of scenario replication which I agree 100%, however, most other systems spend the majority of their time "sparring" in the various ranges with little or no scenario based training. Why do you suppose that is?

[Richard Dimitri] 2 Reasons in my opinion... 1. The majority of these systems aren't versed in the pre contact psychological aspects of violent confrontations, or the possible aftermath of violence such as the law (dealing with LEO, Lawyers, courts, judges etc.) and ramifications of their actions. For example, an individual I know got into a fight, he and 3 of his friends 'beat up' a couple of guys outside a bar for the usual reasons guys get into fights in bars. A few months later, the guy I know was walking out of a movie theatre with his girlfriend, hand in hand, when one of the guys he beat up outside that bar recognized him. Without warning, he pulled a knife out and repeatedly stabbed both him and his girlfriend in the back as they were walking. His girlfriend passed away, he survived. She died because of something he did a few months prior without thinking. A fight isn't necessarily over after you 'beat up' the guy and went home... fighting or defense is much deeper than the physical realm. Scenario based training will allow the participant to pick up on pre contact cues and won't necessarily respond with an immediate physical retaliation tactic... the majority of the time, you can talk your way out of a fight but if you're not trained to do so, then you will immediately react physically. I see it all the time, we get hundreds of trained fighters come to our school per year to check it out, try it out etc. When faced with a scenario where the first part of the assault is verbal they immediately go pre-emptive when it isn't necessarily called for. They have no concern for possible witnesses, friends their attacker might have, a concealed weapon, environmental awareness etc. These factors can work against them at any moment...

2. Trends. The media has always been responsible for people's ideologies. In the 60's it was Karate and Judo, the in the 70's it was Kung Fu, in the 80's it was Ninjitsu, in the early nineties it was Thai Boxing, in the late 90's it was BJJ/Gracie JJ, now it's MMA. The evolutionary process is definitely going in the right direction mind you. General population is highly influenced by the media and what's 'popular' today... I'm not saying that MMA are ineffective, quite the contrary actually, any sport fighter versed in MMA is much more dangerous than your average individual with no training and will be able to handle him/herself in the street no problem against the majority types of assaults out there - but not all. MMA is an essential part of any reality based system because if you're not in there sweating, bleeding and mixing it up then your theoretically 'fighting'. Sparring, regardless what ranges in (kickboxing, grappling, MMA, etc.) are excellent tool and target developers however the next level is scenario replications. You can't really do a scenario and have it go physical if you have no grappling, boxing, kicking, close quarter skills. What if the scenario hits the ground? What if it separates and distance gets created but the option to run is not available? MMA however aren't a complete survival system as they lack the precontact aspects and aftermath aspects... MMA are the middle with no beginning and no end.


And mind you Mr. Dimitri is not disrespecting MMA as he clearly states. This is from an article on Mr. Dimitri.


"This DVD by Mr. Dimitri must have been from an earlier pre- Henry Rollins time. Mr. Dimitri looks like he is coming from a heavy metal concert with his long hair. The bottom line is that even back then he was telling it like it is. I find that even I need to be reminded every now and then that being a great at Brazilian Jiu Jitsu doesn’t mean you are getting back to your wife and kids at the end of the day. I have studied with the Machados and Gracies and I have the neck injuries to prove it. As a consequence I have to be careful about getting cranked. Yet all that arm bar stuff will get you killed on the street. As Dimitri says even a trained guy like Rickson Gracie might take seven seconds to arm bar you and even that’s too long to be on the ground against multiple attackers. Your assailant might not like the idea of losing and decide to pull a knife. The difference between grappling and fighting on the ground is profound. I now only practice ground fighting. On the DVD Mr. Dimitri shows you the clear difference between sport and reality. All of his students are going full out against resisting opponents. The argument that Jiu Jitsu is a valid fighting art for the street because you are rolling with resisting opponents only holds so much water. It’s still a sport, although a tough one. Mr. Dmitri’s students are using resistance, but only in a fighting scenario, not for the sake of rolling. Do damage and get up fast is the key principle. A DVD well worth getting from Mr. Dimitri, as usual!"


All in all there is some good info on fight avoidance and even how you can train for it. The interview is fairly long but it gives a clear idea of what a sensible RBSD school trains. It also goes into what the average Joe should look for in an RBSD school towards the end of the article.

Mr. Dimitri stress fight avoidance, awareness, and knowing the psychological and legal ramifications of an incident, as well as explaining how a fight today can cause a lot more hassle later on in life, as opposed to avoiding it all together and having little to no hassle.