Katas: Any value for *real* combat?

[KirkhamsEbooks.]

As the new guy first rounds on me

Rick

[FitnessRubber]

Katas are simply exercises to teach particular forms and techniques of a particular school or style of MA. They are useful if by useful you mean that you learn how to move. The idea is to get you so well trained that the movements become second nature to you and you no longer have to think about them. Jump roping has no value to a boxer once inside the ring, but every boxer learns to jump rope because it builds dexterity and endurance, which are valuable skills inside the ring. It's an exercise. Long distance runners can build speed and muscle strength by sprinting even though they aren't going to sprint in a marathon. It's an exercise that does provide some value, but the value is not in the way that you would consider a value that will actually use while fighting.

[KirkhamsEbooks.]

The idea is to get you so well trained that the movements become second nature to you and you no longer have to think about them.

That's really kind of my point. Of all the physical activities I'm aware of, only martial arts has you practicing blocking and striking a different way than it's actually used ie: chamber punching and block and then strike. I don't want to develop learned reflexes of that nature. I want a second nature to be my hands up and if I must block then I want to strike at the same time.

Rick

[Guest]

yep, which is why a comparison between traditional martial arts and boxing or athletics is flawed. Fighters and athletes use sports-specific training methods that develop attributes proven to benefit them in their ultimate goal i.e. competition. Kata, like so many things in martial arts, are to be taken on faith. Nothing in the world of athletics is taken on faith, just look at how much athletic training methods evolve decade upon decade.

A point that keeps coming up in this thread is that kata makes the movements "second nature"........well, second nature to do......what exactly? Fight? Fitness Rubber has openly said at the end of his post "the value is not in the way that you would consider a value that will actually use while fighting". Well there is the answer to the question posed at the start of this thread.

[fire cobra]

Is there another way to look at this question?,

For example ..lets say you are a ring fighter and a doorman,you have had knockouts in the ring and on the street with a certain 2 or 3 move combo,its worked for you all the time,you know you cant hit your sparring partners with it because of fear of hurting them,you dont want to get into pulling your puches/moves,what do you do? bag work? yes, plus you may well hit the air as hard as you can,perhaps you may then practice the same moves in different directions,we then may have a short Kata for want of a label.

I happen to think that this is how Kata/Forms etc started,probably by fighters who wanted another means to practice there proven moves without hurting partners or and when there were no partners available,or the partners couldnt test you like you needed to be tested.

My Muay Thai teacher for example had me practicing 20x5mins shadow boxing daily,full power and full speed,this builds up power,speed and most importantly balance for missing,look at the punch stats for proffesional boxing,2 out of 3 punches miss the target,so it is more important to practice missing than it is hitting,hence shadow fighting and maybe just maybe Kata!.

[KirkhamsEbooks.]

I was assuming (yes I know) that this was about traditional kata's, but sure any form can be put together for practice. For longetivity I see a problem with it. I began doing just that putting a form together, when I realized upon my demize (probably my wife killing me) that movements, such as a circular front choke release, will be able to be interpreted to mean all types of things and probably would be. I believe something like this has happened to the older forms as well

Rick

[Guest]

Fire Cobra my friend, there is always another way to look at a question, but to be honest I'm just trying to answer one that was asked.

Everyone has tried to prop up the value of kata by adding other things to it be that cross training, athletic analogies or as in your case an experienced ring fighter using it for motion practise. If you take someone who is already a good fighter and teach him Latin American dancing I could come on here and talk all day about how good that was for his footwork, co-ordination and timing. I'm just trying to look at kata on its own, in the cold light of day, and its value to real combat. And in that context, my view stands.

Now where the hell is my beer?....

[fire cobra]

One Bottle of Newcastle Brown Ale coming your way Michael,

Merry Xmas Brother.

[Guest]

And one straight back at you friend. Have a great Christmas bro.

[Sagacious Lu]

If you take someone who is already a good fighter and teach him Latin American dancing I could come on here and talk all day about how good that was for his footwork, co-ordination and timing.

Personally I think the Latin dancing would be a much better option. It will be at least as useful in terms of martial arts training, probably more so because rhythm is important. In any event it's a good way to meet women which means that it's DEFINATELY good for something, unlike kata. Every time someone tries to waste our time with kata I think we should hijack the thread and start talking about salsa dancing. I'm not sure if I've just had a stroke of genius or if I've just had one too many cups of good cheer for the holiday

[fire cobra]

Either way Sagacious Lu,Have a happy holiday.

[Sagacious Lu]

Either way Sagacious Lu,Have a happy holiday.

You too man

[KirkhamsEbooks.]

Mele Kahlikimaka to all it applies to

Aloha
Rick

[Garland]

body mechanics by doing it in the air over and over, the odds go up - not down.

Not neci-celery. There are some things that could get people really, really hurt. I think sometimes training a really crappy art is worse than not training anything at all, all other things (i.e. physical attributes) being equal.

[Shoot]

Some but not much value. It's better than nothing, but not as good as other programs. However, I suppose that many traditional martial artists don't rely on kata alone. I think it's real value is in working on the form of your technique as a part of a much larger training program. It's the "pretty" or "ideal" version of what is performed in combat.