tactics for small guys

[figgis]

Thanks for all the advice,
has any of you guys executed "throw moves" in street fights against bigger guys? or what's your experience of fighting bigger guys?

Throwing someone heavier than you is much harder; throwing someone heavier than you who is trying to rip off your ear is harder again. Throwing someone who is heavier than you and has a lower centre of gravity and who is willing to fight dirty is a nightmare. Vet throws you learn in judo class very carefully for real combat applications - hip throw is probably way out.

Also, in a real fight the uke might be unsporting enough to grab you to cushion his fall. This happened to me a dojo accident once when my partner panicked and ripped armpit hair out through my gi. It hurt, but if the guy had grabbed my ear I would probably have lost it.

"Kick to the shins" sounds like good advice to me. Combined with the clinch it's what Vunak taught the SEALs. Throwing from the clinch now - that does work, especially if you've cost your opponent use of a leg, I imagine.

[jubaji]

Throwing someone heavier than you is much harder.

But not so much harder than some might think.

[jubaji]

you need to have amazing technique to be able to throw a dude who weighs 200+ if you weigh 130 lb

Not necessarily.

[Heroic Wolf]

I agree with jubaji, throwing people larger than yourself in self defense isn't as impossible as it seems. I've thrown down someone giving me trouble that was about 185lbs when I weighed 115lbs and I was definitely a below-average grappler at the time (still sort of am, lol). I've also managed to successfully throw my 220lb friend at 145lbs, it was for fun and not in self defense, but my friend is an experienced martial artist and I still think its a solid example to bring up. So I think throwing 200+ pound guys when you weigh 130 lbs is certainly a possibility, especially if they don't know martial arts or if you're in very good shape.

[figgis]

I agree with jubaji, throwing people larger than yourself in self defense isn't as impossible as it seems. I've thrown down someone giving me trouble that was about 185lbs when I weighed 115lbs and I was definitely a below-average grappler at the time (still sort of am, lol). I've also managed to successfully throw my 220lb friend at 145lbs, it was for fun and not in self defense, but my friend is an experienced martial artist and I still think its a solid example to bring up. So I think throwing 200+ pound guys when you weigh 130 lbs is certainly a possibility, especially if they don't know martial arts or if you're in very good shape.

I'd definitely say that throwing someone much heavier than you is *harder* rather than impossible - and that again it gets harder (and not impossible) in a real fight. If you're an excellent grappler and/or very strong for your size with a good build for throwing, then obviously throws are a great tool even if you're "small". But that's very different than saying that they are the best tactic for a small guy to deliberately train in for sd purposes. A throw is more likely to go wrong for a small guy up against a big one, and then you're left up close and personal with someone who can tear you apart. (Possibly this person is sitting on your back laughing as you're trying not to collapse under his weight.)

Speaking as a biggish guy (250lbs) the light fighter I'd be scared of is a strike fighter with excellent footwork and several good punches who can evade and sting until he gets a decisive advantage.

As for the guy who said that judo is supposed to let lighter opponents defeat heavier ones: every fighting art is supposed to allow skill to balance some degree of superior strength, otherwise they wouldn't be worth learning! There's nothing special about judo in this regard, or in that it seeks to let you use the large core muscle groups of your body and your opponent's balance and momentum - that's exactly what a boxer achieves in a well thrown punch.

Again, that's not to say that throws are totally out for a small guy, just that he should consider them very carefully and they should probably be a smaller part of his toolbox and, say, low kicks, footwork, and releases bigger ones.

[Heroic Wolf]

Possibly this person is sitting on your back laughing as you're trying not to collapse under his weight.

Lol, that's hapened to me before, he wasn't even bigger than me or in martial arts, but I found out later that his ridiculously muscular physique came from his pro bodybuilder dad.

[jubaji]

I'd definitely say that throwing someone much heavier than you is *harder* rather than impossible - and that again it gets harder (and not impossible) in a real fight. If you're an excellent grappler and/or very strong for your size with a good build for throwing, then obviously throws are a great tool even if you're "small". But that's very different than saying that they are the best tactic for a small guy to deliberately train in for sd purposes. A throw is more likely to go wrong for a small guy up against a big one, and then you're left up close and personal with someone who can tear you apart. (Possibly this person is sitting on your back laughing as you're trying not to collapse under his weight.)

Speaking as a biggish guy (250lbs) the light fighter I'd be scared of is a strike fighter with excellent footwork and several good punches who can evade and sting until he gets a decisive advantage.

As for the guy who said that judo is supposed to let lighter opponents defeat heavier ones: every fighting art is supposed to allow skill to balance some degree of superior strength, otherwise they wouldn't be worth learning! There's nothing special about judo in this regard, or in that it seeks to let you use the large core muscle groups of your body and your opponent's balance and momentum - that's exactly what a boxer achieves in a well thrown punch.

Again, that's not to say that throws are totally out for a small guy, just that he should consider them very carefully and they should probably be a smaller part of his toolbox and, say, low kicks, footwork, and releases bigger ones.

Horseshit. A smaller guy has less chance of KOing a bigger guy with strikes than he does by dropping that bigger guy on his bigger head.

[figgis]

Lol, that's hapened to me before, he wasn't even bigger than me or in martial arts, but I found out later that his ridiculously muscular physique came from his pro bodybuilder dad.

It's not as bad as someone panicking after you throw them and grabbing your armpit hair through your gi. Ohmigawd.

[figgis]

Horseshit. A smaller guy has less chance of KOing a bigger guy with strikes than he does by dropping that bigger guy on his bigger head.

Yeah, because everyone knows that big guys have invincibly muscular throats, armoured knee caps, eyeball armour, and indestructible shins, instep and testicles. Oh - and special valves in their ear drums.

Except me, I suppose - I know that all of my copies of the above are as vulnerable now as when I was 180 instead of 250. Must have been something wrong my training. So if a small guy is faster than I am and gets his fingers in my eyes and then ear-claps me, I'm screwed. It's not like strength won't give me any advantages, but in a striking attack he'll minimize them and have a chance to bring any goodies nature may have given him - like speed and maybe reach - into play.

..Wait... you imagine that in a real fight you and your attacker will put on gloves to fight and that there will be a ref there to enforce the M of Q rules, don't you?

Btw, your posts would probably inspire more respect and less sarcasm if you dropped the "Horseshit" and added some reasons for your beliefs - "I think a light striker is at even more of a disadvantage because X, Y, Z" - rather than just expecting people to be impressed by your awe inspiring self esteem.

[jackmcmanus21]

You can always use chokes on bigger guys. There isn't much a 230 lb guy can do when he was a well executed rear naked choke clamped on him by a 150 lb guy

[jubaji]

Yeah, because everyone knows that big guys have invincibly muscular throats, armoured knee caps, eyeball armour, and indestructible shins, instep and testicles. Oh - and special valves in their ear drums.

Except me, I suppose - I know that all of my copies of the above are as vulnerable now as when I was 180 instead of 250. Must have been something wrong my training. So if a small guy is faster than I am and gets his fingers in my eyes and then ear-claps me, I'm screwed. It's not like strength won't give me any advantages, but in a striking attack he'll minimize them and have a chance to bring any goodies nature may have given him - like speed and maybe reach - into play.

Ah, more theory-fighting; depending on the idea of 'special' points of attack instead of sound fundamentals of fighting exposes the emptiness of your theory.

The same old bullshit that gives MA a bad name and gives the indoctrinated a very false sense of security.

[figgis]

You can always use chokes on bigger guys. There isn't much a 230 lb guy can do when he was a well executed rear naked choke clamped on him by a 150 lb guy

That's true. But in general, any fight where you can get behind an opponent is already - ear slap, ankle grab, knee to the kidneys. It's getting behind an opponent that's hard. A smaller guy's best chance of doing so probably is to stay free and throw strikes until he gets this chance.

[figgis]

Ah, more theory-fighting; depending on the idea of 'special' points of attack

Yes: I believe that if I hit you in the throat, liver, or balls it will hurt you more than a hit in the breast bone, forearms, or non-floating ribs. I also believe that Arnold S.'s scrotum isn't any tougher than Woody Allen's. You may possibly be the only person in the world who doesn't believe this...

instead of sound fundamentals of fighting exposes the emptiness of your theory.

Yes: the idea that hitting someone in the nose hurts more than in the non-floating ribs is purely a "theory". And so's the idea that a punch in the throat can cause someone to choke to death. Really!

The same old bullshit that gives MA a bad name and gives the indoctrinated a very false sense of security.

I look forwards to seeing your triumphant fight against Bas Rutten; man is he going to be surprised as he pummels your liver without any result than if he'd hit your blocking arm! Don't forget to sign a waiver so that he can headbutt you - he'll probably break his forehead on your nose, which will be way kewl.

Kiddo, seriously, what's with your body that it works this way? Are you made out of plasticine??? Or are you a giant one-celled amoeba kind of guy???

Bottom line: I'm 250lbs and I had no problem taking my black belt 180lb JJ teacher mat to the ground in grappling in the first week. But I am completely sure that if we had each kicked each other in the balls we'd have experienced the same level of pain, and that my extra strength gave no edge at all in making a kick land - flexibility, total body coordination, speed and balance were what counted there.

[jubaji]

It's getting behind an opponent that's hard. A smaller guy's best chance of doing so probably is to stay free and throw strikes until he gets this chance.

It's hard for you because you apparently have no clue whatsoever about grappling. If you think about it for a minute, getting behind someone becomes harder and harder the further away you are from your opponent. You are making assumptions based on your blatant ignorance.

[jubaji]

Yes: I believe that if I hit you in the throat, liver, or balls it will hurt you more than a hit in the breast bone, forearms, or non-floating ribs.

And while you are spending your time trying to hit small, moving targets that are instinctually protected the other guy will be beating your presumptuous ass into the dirt. No, it's not like "now you go here and I go here" in the dojo.