i need help please

[kingoftheforest]

But mom I want some cookies

Yeah sorry my post made you throw a hissy fit.

[DJColdfusion]

Ok . . . I don't see a problem with the whole visine thing. If you have no other avenue to resolve the situation then would it be better to give the guy a sick tummy or to use your extensive urban combative/escrima skills and wait for the guy do act on his threats (even beyond breaking your jaw) so that you can pull out one of the half-dozen or so knives that you have hidden among various orifices and stab the guy a few times?

I choose the sour tummy.

[chillaplata]

Agreed. I still think he ought to keep a heavy stick (like a cop's nightstick or riot baton) and a chemical spray (assuming that's legal in Australia) behind the bar and use them if he needs to. The krav instructors ought to be able to help him learn to use the stick.

[kingoftheforest]

Premeditated murder is not self defense

There is always the thought also that if no one else has tried to help you or stop these guys from harassing you that maybe nobody there likes you anyway and it could be a good idea to go away.

But since nobody likes you I guess and you already look like a bitch, poisoning some of them won't hurt your rep.


So if you have no morale compunctions about confusing attempted murder with self defense like some people don't seem to have. Go ahead and use ant poison.
Then when you're doing jail time maybe you can find a way to poison the guys who are ass raping you.

If you didn't respond in an immediate manner whilst being attacked than anything you do from here on out is not self defense by definition and therefore is just petty revenge. If you aren't man enough to stand up for yourself face to face with your assailant then you need to go someplace else till the new town bully runs you off.

There are no rules for self defense but there are rules for not being a chicken shit asshole.

[Tant01]

......

....
There are no rules for self defense but there are rules for not being a chicken shit asshole.

Actually... There are rules for "self defence". In order for the use of force to be JUSTIFIED in the eyes of the court you must be in IMMEDIATE danger of serious bodily injury or death...

Your actions need to seem REASONABLE for the circumstances to a Jury of your peers.

Otherwise it is a criminal act.

[kingoftheforest]

Lifting the fog of absurdity

Actually... There are rules for "self defence". In order for the use of force to be JUSTIFIED in the eyes of the court you must be in IMMEDIATE danger of serious bodily injury or death...

Your actions need to seem REASONABLE for the circumstances to a Jury of your peers.

Otherwise it is a criminal act.

Hmmm that kinda defines spiking someone's drink with anything a criminal act and kicking some dude in the nuts who just swung a pool cue at your head self defense.

Thanks Tant that clears things up nicely.

[Tom Yum]

There is always the thought also that if no one else has tried to help you or stop these guys from harassing you that maybe nobody there likes you anyway and it could be a good idea to go away..

That's always a possibility.

Elaborating from Mike's earlier statements - when it comes to employment, people would rather perserve their own situation than take a risk to watch someone else's back at most jobs, especially considering the nature of a part-time bar job, high turnover at some establishments, competition over tips and casual relations.

Keep in mind, its a gang of several individuals (are they fellow employees? or patrons?) at this guys job that are picking on him.

It doesn't seem like one, two or three guys.

If you didn't respond in an immediate manner whilst being attacked than anything you do from here on out is not self defense by definition and therefore is just petty revenge. If you aren't man enough to stand up for yourself face to face with your assailant then you need to go someplace else till the new town bully runs you off.

Good stuff, KOTF.

[chillaplata]

The law of course varies by state, but generally a person has the right to use such nondeadly force as reasonably seems necessary to protect himself from an imminent use of unlawful force on himself. There is generally no duty to retreat before using nondeadly force in self defense. To justify the use of deadly force to defend yourself, you need to be threatened with imminent death or great bodily harm, and you may also have a duty to retreat. Lastly, if you were the one that started the fight (in the physical sense, i.e. you swung first), you generally cannot plead self-defense unless you tried to withdraw from the fight or your adversary tried to escalate it by pulling a deadly weapon.

So if someone swings a pool cue at your head, you would probably be legally justified in kicking him in the nuts. It's difficult to see how spiking someone's drink, on the other hand, could ever satisfy the legal standard for justifiable self defense. Let's say a Serbian kickboxer comes into your bar and starts talking trash. You know, from previous experience, that he may very well assault you before the night's over. You still are not facing an IMMINENT threat of force in the eyes of the law, so you are not legally justified in slipping Visine into his margarita (even assuming that Visine is not a deadly poison so that there is no risk he will actually die).

Now, you may luck out and get some sympathy from the cops, the DA or the jury. But you can't count on that. So if you are going to try the Visine trick, you might also want to make a habit of giving out lots of free drinks to the local cops, and maybe making an extra donation to the PBA...

Edit: if the OP is still reading this thread, I should note that I have no idea what self-defense laws are like in Oz...the foregoing obviously isn't intended as legal advice...

[Tom Yum]

yes i understand that i needed to call the police.. but what i won't be protected by the police all the time if you get what i mean.. offcourse i will take precaution like u stated.. i've also talked to my employer about this and they have been warned that they will be banned from the place.. but one of them threatened that they will do much worst to me if one of our security do anything to them....

...then your security sucks. They're supposed to know the legalities of their job, which includes protecting the patronage (and employees) of the bar during working hours, right? They could certainly act as a witness for you to file a report.

What has the bar's security advised you to do? And your boss?

my question is would krav maga help my cause? because the only self defence place in adelaide that i could find atm is krav maga

It seems hard to imagine a bunch of trained kickboxers, gaining up on some slightly overweight 19 year old kid who works at a bar?

Lastly if you started all of this or instigated these guys from the start, I don't have any sympathy for the situation you've gotten yourself into.

For general self-defense can you keep a shotgun behind the bar? An extendable batton/baseball bat? A good blade?

[chillaplata]

Mike,

My post was just to follow up on the sidebar self-defense discussion -- I wasn't trying to imply you claimed the Visine trick would hold up as self-defense in court. I did note that you cautioned the OP in earlier posts to take your advice in the intended context -- i.e., as a way to win a fight but not necessarily a way to avoid getting thrown in jail -- and to consider getting another job if his only other choices are getting beaten up or risking going to jail. I also suggested he consider a new place of employment if the bouncers and police can't protect him against a gang of thugs...

[kingoftheforest]

In a cave

Man is there an echo in this thread.

Repeating the same thing over and over again and again and just rearranging the words doesn't really seem like a solid foundation in argument. It just makes it look like you want to hammer your idea into everyone's head and drown out any sensible arguments or counter points.


Kinda the equivalent to a kid yelling "Nah-ah" at the top of his lungs while someone else tries to speak.

Taking things out of context also seems to be some people specialty. I have definitely seen people on this forum say

"Do whatever it takes to win" but the context has always been centered around being attacked when you do it. That's while you are being attacked present tense. Nobody that I respect on this forum has ever said wait till they come back and then do anything to win.

There may have been someone on this forum who said that but I doubt that person garnered any respect from anyone who has any idea what self defense is.

I mean hell if you are married and have a kid and say your wife is a porker then maybe you should take them with you where ever you go. That way there if you need a couple of human shields you can use them. Hell that's doing anything to win.

I sure hope that last line doesn't make anyone comment back all...........here it is our word of the week


sanctimonious






...or butt-hurt.

[Guest]

Repeating the same thing over and over again and again and just rearranging the words doesn't really seem like a solid foundation in argument.

And often when you are in that argument, you don't realise that in fact you are doing exactly the same thing. And I'm afraid you are.

This discussion has gone way beyond repetition.

I have never read, not once, Mike Brewer say that the method he is discussing is for self-defence. I have never read him saying that it is legal. I haven't, for that matter, read him saying that it is moral, brave, right, wrong, good, bad or indifferent. The guy is just saying that he's done it, it works, and it has achieved the desired effect. Thats it, period.

You hold a view that this is not self defence (already agreed), that it is not legal (already agreed) and that it is a chicken shit approach (thats your personal point of view, and you are entitled to it).

Whether or not Mike expressing his experiences and point of view as advice on the forum is "irresponsible" is again totally subjective. This is the Urban Combatives section, I have seen far worse posted on here and more importantly its largely bullshit from people who have never done what they claim the have. I know Mike, I have trained with him and worked with him, and if he says he has done it - he has done it. You may not agree with it, or his expression of his experiences on here, but its a free country.

I have nothing against you KOTF, we have held good discussion on here, but back to your original post you are also guilty of hands over the ears repetition in this thread. I think maybe its time we all moved on, thats my 2c.

[Tots64]

Hello !
I was reading about your problem and it's not easy. if you hope to be rid of those guys by learning martial you must realise that it is going to take a bit of time before you'll be ready, especially if there are a few. Don'you have some friends that can help you? have you tried to talk to them? Maybe if you offer them a drink and try to laugh with them things could change. I think violence is not the answer. If the police takes them to the station and put them in cells they'll soon be out and mad against you... That could be the beginning of something more dansgerous.

[kingoftheforest]

Tomatoe tomato

I know Mike, I have trained with him and worked with him, and if he says he has done it - he has done it. You may not agree with it, or his expression of his experiences on here, but its a free country.

You know I have said the same thing about a few other people on here and it doesn't amount to shit. I have been lambasted for having this same sentiment of TTE and Boarspear. So I'll tell you the exact same thing that was told to me.

Your a nut hugger and you need to get your tongue out of his ass....since he doesn't have a ponytail for you to braid. This isn't meant to be disrespectful to you Mr. Wright, I just want to make sure you know how this forum approaches ideas like that, or at least that was the impression I was given.

It is a free country and I have the right to defend the fact that somebody mentions members of a certain "camp" of which I am a junior instructor with, who also live in my house. Then when I defend this I am told that I was not being referred to nor were any of the people in my "immediate vicinity" so I should unwad my panties. I am not going to point out the logical flaws here because goddamn they should be evident.

Also I really get sick of somebody talking shit about a forum member they ban in almost every discussion that involves people form "the camp". The member whom I feel the same way about as you do about Mike so I am not going to let someone run all over their name just because they have no means of defending themselves. The only difference with your post is Brewer can still post on here.

Somebody really likes to stack the deck in his favor.

I have nothing against you KOTF, we have held good discussion on here,

I feel the same. I would never think badly of someone defending his friends and I won't lose respect for you over that. But some things make you re question some people's value systems.

I am not here to try to change your opinion nor am I trying to force mine on you. Anyone can say "yes you are because you keep defending it"...but I am making sure that some one doesn't tarnish my value system by trying to apply their own shitty standards and doctrine to something that leads directly back to my name.

[Hardball]

It's an Internet forum. Some people just won't like each other. It happens all over the internet. It is, what it is!!!