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SPARRING (Better to give than receive)

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  • SPARRING (Better to give than receive)

    This is one of the better written articles I've seen on the idea that sparring is good for SD.

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    I've written plenty concerning my thoughts on sparring, specifically symmetrical vs. asymmetrical tactics and the training I recommend to reinforce the latter.

    When I was younger I absolutely loved sparring, in fact I wouldn't stay in a club or school that didn't focus on it! I truly believed that sparring was the pinnacle of training, and that everything else was merely supportive.

    Unfortunately, as good as I got at sparring - and I did more than a fair impersonation of someone who knew what he was doing - it seemed when I tried to replicate my sparring prowess in actual altercations it soon became apparent that my 'opponents' had different intentions, namely wanting to 'fight' and not 'spar' and I had to rethink my plans most times - usually adopting roughly what was levelled at me instead, and beat them at their own game so to speak.

    After such encounters, I would invariably be disappointed with what I was forced to resort to in order to prevail - not always, but still I doggedly stuck with sparring as being the answer to fighting, and made sure I did more of it to better 'prepare' myself for the next incident - even though it was not what I really needed, just what I thought I did - and I was wrong.
    For those that did want to 'duel', and for the others that hung back looking for that perfect opportunity to land a shot, it all panned out as per training, but these instances were firmly in the minority - maybe for not for everyone out there, but it seemed that most of the people I came up against - once it went combative - just wanted to batter me and tried their very best to do so from the off. Occasionally there would be the obvious martial artist, and to be brutally honest these were the easiest to deal with, and still are.

    Sparring makes you tough, better conditioned, improves timing and the ability to hit moving targets - this is undeniable, but the entire tactical model is wrong, unless the other person is like-minded and wants to trade shots in the same format. Sometimes they do, but mostly they don't in my experience - they want you out of the picture as soon as possible and generally try to achieve this by completely 'get stuck in' asymmetrical means, and as such having a symmetrical plan falls down at the base level.

    If you can be first, and even better - last, then all is well, and sometimes the situation allows for this - confrontations are the best example of a symmetrical engagement initially, until it 'goes off' and then it should be all one-sided for the best chance of survival.

    Tactically all combat is fairly generic in concept, regardless of scale - consider then that any notion of symmetry in warfare is long defunct, and not even considered at a personal, let alone strategic, level. Once upon a time armies would form-up to trade various unpleasant exchanges, even up until WWI this was evident, and then a lot changed in WWII with the advent of the blitzkrieg - the lightening war - and every successive battle used this asymmetrical model with one-sided fluid momentum, applying constant offensive pressure as its goal.

    Sparring reinforces a certain siege mentality in my opinion, where time and space are present and can be actively manipulated to gain advantage - by both parties, and although there is movement it is to and fro, give and take - definitely not the same as when the assault takes place, until which time nothing is really resolved at all. Trading shots from behind cover is not what combat is all about - sure you can take your adversaries out this way, but you never truly take the objective until you assault it in a determined and committed manner.

    Taking these concepts to a personal level, regarding training, finds the usual sparring practices leading the individual away from the actual requirements of fighting - this may sound controversial, but then most things have at some point I submit. Even though sparring will most certainly develop excellent attributes that are always vital in fighting, these same attributes are next to useless if the base tactical model is out of context - so care must be taken when training in such a manner, in order to recognise the limitations of the activity with the bigger picture in constant view, and avoid negative re-programming of the true perspective. Many individuals will swear by their participation in various and extensive forms of sparring making them the effective fighters that they undoubtedly are - but I would argue that this can be in spite of sparring, not because of it. Competitive fighting is different, sparring completely and exactly replicates the event itself and is therefore mandatory - but there is a huge difference between symmetrical sport fighting and asymmetrical real fighting.

    One of the problems that many have with taking on-board the above issues is that superficially sparring does indeed seem to resemble fighting - until you look again with a more critical and objective eye, and actually compare the two models. Actually there are moments of fighting within sparring, but the parts in-between ruin the value of these moments to a large degree. The posturing, probing and circling are largely absent from real combat - often completely so, but form major components of every sparring match, unfortunately getting good at these things isn't as useful as some would believe due to this redundancy. To truly develop the exact attributes these need to be 'edited out' of the practice, and instead developed within the management of confrontations instead with a slightly different focus.

    When engaged in sparring, and all forms of symmetrical competitive fighting, the capability to cover distance and land various strikes is a key factor to being effective - and for this the ability to 'bridge the gap' and be non-telegraphic is vital, and something that is striven for regarding training and preparation. Such engagements invariably take place from 'out' of range and such is the need to be able to 'enter' and place shots without interception or obstruction. Real fighting doesn't place anywhere near the emphasis on this however, as when people want to hurt you they make sure that they are positioned close enough to do so, therefore being able to 'bridge the gap' doesn't mean much if there isn't one!

    Sparring may have four 'ranges' such as kicking, punching, trapping and grappling - or whatever terminology is used instead - but fighting only really has the one worth concerning yourself with, and this is 'in' range, if you're not 'in' range you're not actually fighting! This may sound glib and over-simplistic, and it is to be honest, but it's to address the over-importance I feel is assigned to the issue of range in personal combat - obviously legs are longer than arms and kicks have more range potential than punches, but when the sparring stops and the fight starts this extra distance doesn't count for that much at all in truth. Rifles can spit bullets much further than pistols, but if all your combat took place up-close what would be the need? You need to 'bridge the gap' in a real fight? Simple, just blink - your adversary will take care of that 'gap' for you, if there ever was one!

    Being able to create space, in order to increase your options and prevent being immobilised, and therefore easy prey for a third party, is a far more important skill for fighting in my opinion - and the exact opposite to what is aimed for in sparring. Even a classic skill such as feinting can have limited use in a real fight, sometimes in a pre-fight confrontation perhaps, but during the intensity of a full-on engagement the various distractions and deceptions afforded by skilled feinting can once again be superfluous.

    Try sparring against someone who isn't on the same page - tactically - and see how you get on, you'll find what skills and attributes are redundant, and which are definitely not. By this I mean a committed and purely offensive adversary, constantly applying pressure - not intermittently attacking and defending. Study fights, real fights, and make sure you're training to deal with actual attack formats - both technical and tactical - and not just those of your fellow practitioners. Where is the give and take, the flirting and foreplay, when the fighting is real? Outside of sparring and competition you'll be hard-pressed to find it. Add a third party and try your symmetrical tactics against two adversaries - even if they are following suit you'll be in trouble, but when they both decide to fight, not spar, your only chance is to attack and overwhelm with constant offensive pressure - unless you can grow more arms and legs! Classic and accepted doctrine, such as using one person as a shield whilst engaging the other, is at best an exceptionally short-lived affair when attempted for real - try it in the ring with 16oz gloves on, making sure that both adversaries follow no script and truly try to continuously land shots, then compare this punched-in-the-head-party with the demonstrations of such methods that somehow make it look so easy….

    Do I advocate live drills with a fully resisting adversary? Of course, but I objectively aim to prevent it becoming a typical sparring scenario. Just having a stop and start signal, a set and limited arena with a pre-defined start point moves the context away from where I want it to be, regardless of the skillset allowed. Does this limit training options? Unfortunately yes, but taking the easy path and simply adopting a sport-based model isn't necessarily the best answer in my opinion - if it doesn't correspond with your exact take on fighting, you are conditioning conflicting actions and reactions that will become your preferred options under duress. This is fine if everything does correspond however - and an excellent 'pro' argument for those that maintain the fundamental flaws inherent in having skills that you cannot practice in a 'live' environment. Still it is all too easy for such training to become hugely symmetrical in conduct, and this is the real issue - not the various techniques and targets that can or can't be utilised.

    Finding simple methods of initiating such live drills, from less prepared and more spontaneous circumstances, and keeping engagements much shorter and intense than normal, adds greatly to building the necessary elements required for fighting. Safety has to feature heavily without doubt, and the question of how much contact to allow raises numerous issues - heavy contact carries with it the obvious risk of injury, but lighter contact is unrealistic from the standpoint of the recipient continuing, when engaged in a manner that would in real application be incapacitating and therefore improbable, and to use such light contact does not lend itself to realistic application in the first place - consider the blistering demonstrations of skill that impress due to sheer speed, but would be far less impressive if the necessary power was applied for a real, not simply aesthetic, effect.

    Sparring - a touchy subject to criticise for most, it's challenging, enjoyable - exhilarating, but is it as vital, as directly significant as some would like to think? Not for real fighting, it can and will have certain indirect benefits, but in actual fact it could even be considered counter-productive compared to other training methods. Just remember that ultimately, combat sports are based on combat - not the other way around.

    Mick Coup.

    Last edited by TTEscrima; 12-18-2008, 09:19 PM.

  • #2
    Excellent article. Touches on many points that have been tirelessly debated here.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Uke View Post
      Excellent article. Touches on many points that have been tirelessly debated here.
      My thoughts as well, We've said it until we nearly wore the keys off the keyboard. I figured another voice would be welcomed... by some of the readers anyway.

      Comment


      • #4
        I always thought sparring was fun, and still think so. But I agree it lacks that bit of realness.

        Like fat free stuff just taste the same.

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        • #5
          So what sort of sparring- or sparring substitute does this guy endorse? Does he think he has a better idea and if so how does he set up his sparring drills? Some of the things he's saying make sense to me but I also know that getting hit (thrown, submitted etc.) is both humbling and painful. When you introduce that reality a lot of people take their check books to schools that give the illusion of teaching their students to fight without requiring them to use their skills against genuine resistance- thus making the training more or less worthless for self-defense. Usually when people start talking about sparring being a bad idea they're just making excuses for not training hard.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by kingoftheforest View Post
            I always thought sparring was fun, and still think so. But I agree it lacks that bit of realness.

            Like fat free stuff just taste the same.
            More like plastic fruits put out on display to look nice.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Uke View Post
              More like plastic fruits put out on display to look nice.

              Does this mean that you're one of those people that likes to fantasize about fighting but won't ever learn how to do it because *gasp* you might get a boo boo? Or do you really think you have the alternative I asked about in my last post? Please explain.

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              • #8
                We sustain bruises bumps black eyes and swollen lips here as well. We just don't throw on gloves and a mouth piece before we train. This isn't meant to be condescending it's just how we do it.

                The idea we use is that you train something slow till you"own it" when you know where you are at any given time using that form or technique or whatever you want to call it, then you can be in any position and transmit power for the strike. We also train range so that you know where your strikes stop and with what force.

                We "spar" in a sense by attacking each other but with limited power. Most people who train here now can evade pretty well and know there range. You will get throw, knocked down or hit if you mess up. However I don't need to try to take you head off to understand how to use a move.

                If you know your range, power, and where you are at then when it's real you can take out all the stops. So I guess instead of teaching each other we can beat on a person for 3 minutes non-stop and not hurt ourselves or possibly not incapacitate them. We do the opposite, we train that if you can attack and defend at a slower speed than full on, and still get desired results then when you go "all out" the damage is going to be even greater.

                Just last week me and the wife were "playing" in class and I managed to slap here ear. It swelled up huge and I'd say i hit here about as hard as you'd smack your kids ass for misbehaving.


                it also boils down to what you feel works best for you. If sparring is your thing great. Love it own do it. if a different way works better in your mind go for it.

                If you don't believe in your training it won't work. I just don't like to have an opinion on something I haven't tried. Hell I ate a chicken foot once because I didn't know what it tasted like.

                I'll never do that again. But now I know and can have an educated opinion on it.

                I've sparred and while it is great fun and exhilarating, I felt it was lacking after training the way I do know. that's just an opinion statement. I'm not here to change minds, I'm just here to advocate what I train, just like everyone else here.

                KOTF

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sagacious Lu View Post
                  When you introduce that reality a lot of people take their check books to schools that give the illusion of teaching their students to fight without requiring them to use their skills against genuine resistance- thus making the training more or less worthless for self-defense. Usually when people start talking about sparring being a bad idea they're just making excuses for not training hard.


                  Agreed. Another good post!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sagacious Lu View Post
                    Does this mean that you're one of those people that likes to fantasize about fighting but won't ever learn how to do it because *gasp* you might get a boo boo? Or do you really think you have the alternative I asked about in my last post? Please explain.
                    Most of us where I'm from started out sparring and fighting. If you read the mugging article you'd see that the victim was actually a student of a world class competitor. Its just that we don't pretend that by competing we are doing something else than what we are actually doing.

                    The article above says everything you'd need to know plus some. Give it another read. Its a damn good write up and its worth it.

                    Nice find, TTE.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sagacious Lu View Post
                      Usually when people start talking about sparring being a bad idea they're just making excuses for not training hard.

                      So and I'm just asking because this is what i gathered from this statement.

                      If you don't get in the ring and get pummeled while pummeling someone else, then you're not training hard?

                      I'm going to wait with the rest of my comments till you get a chance to answer this.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kingoftheforest View Post
                        If you know your range, power, and where you are at then when it's real you can take out all the stops.


                        This is the part that I can't agree with. If you 'never' go full out, I think it's a mistake to assume you can do what you haven't done just because you decide 'it's real' all of a sudden. When keeping your ass in one piece might depend on doing more than causing a swollen ear - like say putting the hurt on some very large, very aggressive, very not feeling pain right now lunatic - the experience you haven't had might be exactly the kind you need. It's the same sort of thinking that goes into American Kempo type stuff where someone will pretend to throw a punch and the defender goes through 25 pre-set movements saying, "And I go like this and your arm is broken, and I go like this and shatter your ribs, and go like this and your neck is broken," etc. Putting your faith behind something you've never done - or done full out - seems like a sucker's bet to me.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jubaji View Post
                          This is the part that I can't agree with. If you 'never' go full out, I think it's a mistake to assume you can do what you haven't done just because you decide 'it's real' all of a sudden. When keeping your ass in one piece might depend on doing more than causing a swollen ear - like say putting the hurt on some very large, very aggressive, very not feeling pain right now lunatic - the experience you haven't had might be exactly the kind you need. It's the same sort of thinking that goes into American Kempo type stuff where someone will pretend to throw a punch and the defender goes through 25 pre-set movements saying, "And I go like this and your arm is broken, and I go like this and shatter your ribs, and go like this and your neck is broken," etc. Putting your faith behind something you've never done - or done full out - seems like a sucker's bet to me.
                          But I'm not saying you go through 20 preset motions to get to the strike. I said that if you know the technique and your own range, then you can be in any position from start to finish of the technique and still know where and how to strike.

                          The "20 preset moves" you mentioned are there to teach your body what position and space it occupies during that point in movement, so you don't have to start from move one.

                          You learn you ABC's A-Z but when you write your name you don't write

                          abcdefghiJ you just write J and then the next letter. Same with the technique.

                          You start from wherever you need to be at that time.

                          As for the guy feeling no pain getting just a swollen ear. I'm thinking I'm gonna hit him a lot harder than I hit my wife.

                          I know what hitting hard feels like because we have hit pads and we hit them. I know what my fastest and hardest hits are like because I hit the pads with them.

                          If I put on things I'm not going to be wearing all the time then when "reality" comes i will move different. I have seen many boxers surprised when they hit a guy bare knuckle the first time and their fists hurts. Gloves gave them the confidence that they wouldn't break their hand on the other guys face. Will it always break no not likely. But when have hitting your bones on somebody else's sounded like a good healthy idea for long term use of your body?

                          You're entitled to the opinion that this is a bad idea. But at the same time if you go "all out" in sparring and don't kill or hospitalize the other guy or have it happen to you, then how "all out" is it gonna be in the street.

                          Especially when you meet some very large very aggressive not feeling pain lunatic who doesn't care if you break his arm. Is a shot to the dome that did nothing but swell up your sparring partners eye gonna take him out.

                          If you're gonna fight a no pain lunatic I'm gonna get my knife if at all possible before I rely on incapacitating some one who doesn't seem right in the head anyway. So no swollen ears for raving psychos.
                          Last edited by kingoftheforest; 12-20-2008, 11:25 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by kingoftheforest View Post
                            But I'm not saying you go through 20 preset motions to get to the strike.
                            I wasn't really making a direct correlation.



                            Originally posted by kingoftheforest View Post
                            You learn you ABC's A-Z but when you write your name you don't write

                            abcdefghiJ you just write J and then the next letter.
                            But you eventually have to write the name before you can claim the ability to write your name.

                            Originally posted by kingoftheforest View Post
                            As for the guy feeling no pain getting just a swollen ear. I'm thinking I'm gonna hit him a lot harder than I hit my wife.
                            First of all, that sentence sounds horrible. Second, that is sort of my point. You're gonna need to hit him a lot harder and if you haven't hit someone a lot harder there is degree of uncertainty around how much harder you really can hit (a person, not a bag).


                            Originally posted by kingoftheforest View Post
                            I know what hitting hard feels like because we have hit pads and we hit them. I know what my fastest and hardest hits are like because I hit the pads with them.
                            C'mon now, I don't really need to point this one out, right?


                            Originally posted by kingoftheforest View Post
                            You're entitled to the opinion that this is a bad idea. But at the same time if you go "all out" in sparring and don't kill or hospitalize the other guy or have it happen to you, then how "all out" is it gonna be in the street.
                            That is both a cop-out and an awful lot of assumption.


                            Originally posted by kingoftheforest View Post
                            If you're gonna fight a no pain lunatic I'm gonna get my knife if at all possible before I rely on incapacitating some one who doesn't seem right in the head anyway. So no swollen ears for raving psychos.

                            You can't fall back on the 'knife' argument to prove you don't need to develop practical empy hand skills. You know this.

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                            • #15
                              It was nice talking to you jubaji.

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