Cobatatives and aggression

[Junka]

In a way this relates to my other thread.

In MA, the common logic is for someone to develop their skills over many years, training in their spare time maybe 4-6 hours per week.

In the past, militaries who often consisted of conscripts had nothing like this kind of time. Therefore it seems that comabatives whether taught to military or civilians should be able to produce results in a relatively short time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that someone can be trained to do in a few weeks of intensive study can replace years of work but, assuming the person is physically fit they should be able to get somewhere. Cops don't do years of MA before working the streets for example.

The military in the UK and probably all militaries place a heavy emphasis on aggression training to the best of my knowledge. What drills would be good for this?

Comments:

[Garland]

Maybe I'm missing your question... you want to know what drills are effective to train people to become effective quickly...or how to facillitate aggression in training to prepare for a true life encounter?

[Junka]

Maybe I'm missing your question... you want to know what drills are effective to train people to become effective quickly...or how to facillitate aggression in training to prepare for a true life encounter?

Well I left the thread open ended for discussion. The second question however interests me more personally. How to facilitate aggression for a true life encounter.

[Garland]

How to facilitate aggression for a true life encounter.

Any time you are conditioned to hit something, stab something, kick something, shoot something, etc... whenever a trigger comes up, it is conditioning an aggressive physical response.

As for psychological aggression, there are programs like Paul Vunak's that try to institute a "killer instinct". Kelly McCann/Jim Grover differentiates martial arts and combatives as combatives is done to somebody, not with somebody. I also know that many RBSD groups "bark" at their students while running scenario based training, threatening and belittling them into action...which I think they believe adds to realism? or illicits a violent response? maybe to increase physiological arousal to see if their students can respond with a fear response??? In any case, it is a primer for an aggressive response.

Physiologically, I'm not sure how different fear and anger are at a chemical level...and I know that many people respond well while they are fearful if they have the proper training/conditioning.

Frankly, I think that there is a difference between responding with decisive violence at an extreme level...and losing your temper.

I also think that, overall, my generation, so-called generation kill...has already been conditioned to react with violence through social learning and, to some degree, operant conditioning. We are more prone to react with violence, for sure, since any generation after 1800, and probably before that as well.

Anything in terms of aggression beyond that is simply an individual's particular circumstances and any of their a priori characteristics and temperment.

[Junka]

I also know that many RBSD groups "bark" at their students while running scenario based training, threatening and belittling them into action...which I think they believe adds to realism? or illicits a violent response? maybe to increase physiological arousal to see if their students can respond with a fear response???

Good post.

Some old school flight instructors like to unsettle their students before doing emergency drills. I also heard the LAPD use similar stuff for their shooting. I have no idea if it works or not.

Frankly, I think that there is a difference between responding with decisive violence at an extreme level...and losing your temper.

yes, me too. It is basically a fear response question really then, or adrenal dump I think is the buzz word?

I also think that, overall, my generation, so-called generation kill...has already been conditioned to react with violence through social learning and, to some degree, operant conditioning. We are more prone to react with violence, for sure, since any generation after 1800, and probably before that as well.

Yeah I suppose we should be looking at it the other way around...how to make most ordinary people less aggressive. Just look at road rage, it's mostly fairly 'normal' people with decent day jobs.

[Tant01]

Good post.

Some old school flight instructors like to unsettle their students before doing emergency drills. I also heard the LAPD use similar stuff for their shooting. I have no idea if it works or not.


yes, me too. It is basically a fear response question really then, or adrenal dump I think is the buzz word?


....

Peyton calls it "WOOFING"...


Adrenal stress response can be a powerful tool to ingrain gross motor skills.

[Tant01]

Who said "A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan next week"...

[TTEscrima]

Adrenal stress response can be a powerful tool to ingrain gross motor skills.

Indeed, COL Applegate used to stress that bayonet and live blade training was the fastest and surest way to instill fighting spirit. Pugil sticks ain't bad but they're still inferior to bayonet drills. Several of our youngest generation just graduated boot in the last month and another left for Afghanistan today, all said their training was pitiful and watered down so that everyone could complete the training. H2H "equations" that were "solved" by putting the opponent down without following him to the ground were reprimanded and punished with extra duty. I think KOTF heard similar reports from a family member today who just graduated Marine boot.

[kingoftheforest]

I think KOTF heard similar reports from a family member today who just graduated Marine boot.

That's true. I showed my wife's cousin some WWII combatives prior to him leaving.

He came back and said the current USMC program relied heavily on the soldier being able to out muscle his opponent.

He was appalled by the knife defense they taught. His father is a hunter/trapper and his grandfather was a bar fighter so he has a background on how to fight.

He couldn't wait to pull me to the side and tell me that what I showed him got him reprimanded in Basic for being to much over the edge and too destructive.

What the fizzle. I always thought war was hell? So play nice?

[TTEscrima]

He couldn't wait to pull me to the side and tell me that what I showed him got him reprimanded in Basic for being to much over the edge and too destructive.

What the fizzle. I always thought war was hell? So play nice?

The idea of remaining on your feet and attempting to finish the opponent yourself is a no no nowadays in every services training. As it was explained to one of my family members (after he flattened his opponent): YOU ARE NOT TO ATTEMPT TO WIN THE ENGAGEMENT ALONE!!! YOU ARE TO USE TECHNIQUES WE TAUGHT YOU THAT WILL KEEP YOUR OPPONENT OCCUPIED UNTIL YOUR UNIT CAN ASSIST YOU!!

The Army functions on a 3 to 1 principle, if they don't outnumber their opponents by 3 to 1 they are considered combat ineffective, that says it all.

Good thing we outnumber all our enemies by a 3 to 1 margin eh?

Sun Tzu must be laughing his ass off from the grave.

[Junka]

Indeed, COL Applegate used to stress that bayonet and live blade training was the fastest and surest way to instill fighting spirit. Pugil sticks ain't bad but they're still inferior to bayonet drills.

i remember seeing a documentary on the British Paratroop regiment where they were extolling the virtues of bayonet drills for this purpose but didn't show the drills. What exactly is it about bayonet drills that makes them good for this and what kind of drills?

He couldn't wait to pull me to the side and tell me that what I showed him got him reprimanded in Basic for being to much over the edge and too destructive.

What the fizzle. I always thought war was hell? So play nice?

It's part politics part current need I think. A lot of the work in Afghanistan seems to have become policing. Afghanistan in particular has been eclipsed by Iraq but is IMO the more important conflict since it's Taliban home turf, or close to it anyway.

[jubaji]

Well, it seems clear that these two heroes should be in charge of training our nation's military.

[TTEscrima]

i remember seeing a documentary on the British Paratroop regiment where they were extolling the virtues of bayonet drills for this purpose but didn't show the drills. What exactly is it about bayonet drills that makes them good for this and what kind of drills?

It's hard to put into words if you've never done live blade training it's something that needs to be experienced. In the mean time try reading Kill Or Get Killed and Get Tough for some training ideas.

It's part politics part current need I think. A lot of the work in Afghanistan seems to have become policing. Afghanistan in particular has been eclipsed by Iraq but is IMO the more important conflict since it's Taliban home turf, or close to it anyway.

I assume you meant Iraq has become a policing effort because Afghanistan is anything but, there are a number of stories of 4-6 American soldiers engaged in firefights against 200 or more enemy combatants.

You can find quite a few very opinionated people who have never been in any service at all who believe that the military does whats best for the troops, when in fact anyone who has ever served will tell you the opposite. Your training, your weapons and your equipment are all geared to be used by the lowest denominator and made by the lowest bidder.

After all, people don't make fun of military intelligence without good reason.

[Junka]

I assume you meant Iraq has become a policing effort because Afghanistan is anything but, there are a number of stories of 4-6 American soldiers engaged in firefights against 200 or more enemy combatants.

yes, you're right I was thinking of Iraq when I said policing. It's late here and I'm not reading what I'm typing.

[jubaji]

You can find quite a few very opinionated people who have never been in any service at all

LOL! The hairdresser crew has lately been quite devoted to passive-aggressive 'combat.'