victim mentality...

[Tom Yum]

Ha ha, the rolling eyes is because I'm an intelegent female, and I don't care much about fassion, and though I often wear contacts I do have glasses. The "Nerdy" girls you're talking about already know the fluffy bimbos are little better than skin deap, and we think it's obvious. So when it takes guys years to figgure it out, we just sort of shake our heads, roll our eyes, and tell the boys they're doing a good job. You know, positive reinforcement for their valuable discovery. *giggle* If it feels like we're making fun of you, just remember that that's only a little bit the case, and we really do appreciate it when the good ones get a clue.

Thanks!

We figure this out around the same time you guys figure out that abusive and mean spirited types.

[GQchris]

Ha ha, the rolling eyes is because I'm an intelegent female, and I don't care much about fassion, and though I often wear contacts I do have glasses. The "Nerdy" girls you're talking about already know the fluffy bimbos are little better than skin deap, and we think it's obvious. So when it takes guys years to figgure it out, we just sort of shake our heads, roll our eyes, and tell the boys they're doing a good job. You know, positive reinforcement for their valuable discovery. *giggle* If it feels like we're making fun of you, just remember that that's only a little bit the case, and we really do appreciate it when the good ones get a clue.

Hey, you should be thankful that studs like me are available now better late than never, lol j/k

[GQchris]

For the record, I know tons of guys who date really awful women who treat them like crap as well.

I agree with Apple--the best thing to do is keep being their friends to remind them what it feels like to be around people who respect them. Sometimes it works.

I used to be one of those men who loved b!tches, like the title of that book "Why men love b!tches" lol...

I had to learn this lesson the hard way with my baby's mama; after almost 5 years and a little girl together, it took breaking up and getting back together so many times, and just basically trying to make excuses for her awful behavior because I wanted to work things out for the sake of our daughter, until finally we broke up for good... I'm a better man because of it, no matter that it was an awful, nightmare relationship, but I've learned and I've grown and ready for when Jessica Alba is ready to settle down, I'll be there to pick up the slack, lol

[Tom Yum]

I used to be one of those men who loved b!tches, like the title of that book "Why men love b!tches" lol...

I had to learn this lesson the hard way with my baby's mama

Some women are just plain b!tches, but others are that way for a reason.

Some believe that being one makes them somehow attractive; its the same thing as the bad-guy, jerk principal just in reverse.

Some women are just very, very aggressive natured. They can drink with the boys and fight. Fun to hang out with and as a girlfriend, they will keep your ass in check....lol.

[Little Apple]

Thanks!

We figure this out around the same time you guys figure out that abusive and mean spirited types.

Ha ha! Oh, Touchet Sir!

Heh, ok, Good job figguring stuff out guys, the "Nerds" of the female world are waiting for you. But back on topic, I have a question: was this thread to rant about the victim mentality, or to discuss it with usefull things in mind? Because a rant's all good, but if this is a discussion, we should get back to talking about reasons, and solutions for the one's we love in this situation.

[treelizard]

a rant's all good, but if this is a discussion, we should get back to talking about reasons, and solutions for the one's we love in this situation.

Things that have worked for me in helping friends who fall prey to victim mentality:

1. gently pointing it out (IF THEY ASK)
2. being detached from the outcome (trying not to be invested in whether or not they listen to me)
3. keeping the lines of communication open
4. trying not to lose hope (praying for the person helps)

But I think almost everyone I know falls into the trap of victim mentality in some small way or another, so we need to keep looking at ourselves and making changes. Some kind of spiritual practice daily, whether it's meditation or qigong or prayer or a combination, as well as a way to review patterns/accomplishments/setbacks (a training journal, a blog or even just sent e-mails) helps immensely...

One thing I've found that is useful for women who are deciding to make big changes is to have some kind of ceremony, and ground it in some physical object, so you can just touch the object to remind you of your goal. For example, one of my friends leaves her body a lot when she is stressed, so she made an agreement with a rock she prayed over in ceremony, that whenever she puts her feet on it, it will bring her back down into this plane... And then she's less likely to fall back into old patterns of decisions she makes while she's dissociating... I have a physical object from ceremony that I wear which reminds me *I'M* in control of any situation I have to face. When I start feeling like a victim, all Ihave to do is touch it and then I remember... (Of course, I have to remember to touch it, lol.)

[treelizard]

Great post as always Brewer. One of the problems that I've seen is once women (less experience talking with men about these issues so can't say) start to speak up more and act less subordinately, there is this negative response to it and it's SO much easier to just fall back into old patterns.

And also what I have seen with women I've discussed this with is that just making a tiny commitment can really get the ball rolling... Like I know one person who started with, "For the next hour, I'm not going to apologize for things that aren't my fault" and then a few weeks later, "I'm going to tell my boss next time my coworker steals my idea" to, "I'm going to make specific recomendations about things that affect me in writing" and has really moved from being very passive to really confident and dynamic in just six short months.

I think the better you treat yourself when alone, the more you will recognize if people aren't treating you that way. I always tell women to treat themselves like they would a friend, which seems obvious, but in practice, it's sort of like, "Gosh, I really wouldn't ask a friend to survive on five hours of sleep eating only Bon Bons would I? And I'd clean the house before she visited. I deserve the same."

As far as identifying changes again this takes very deliberate choice (and it is a daily choice), and I think for some people therapy is very important, or at least having some kind of regular check-in to see how things are progressing. And this is where I think very honest friends are so essential. I used to have a conversation every couple of months with one of my mentors and she'd say things like, "Why are you letting this person manipulate your emotions?" I'd get mad and ask her why she was so harsh and a couple hours later would realize what she was saying and change the behavior. And call her back and apologize for getting defensive. And when I started it would take a lot longer (weeks). Every time I talk to a friend of mine, I find myself telling her, "I don't let people talk to me that way" when she describes an incident at work or with whoever she's dating, she bristles and gets all quiet but inevitably a week later she will say things like, "I decided it wasn't okay for him to talk to me that way and I told him so myself." It's really awesome.

I don't think this mentality ever completely goes away but I think you can hold your center longer, and notice it when it's starting to happen, and respond appropriately, but that doesn't mean you will ever forget who you were... My hope for myself and for others is that whenever we find ourselves feeling trapped or helpless that we will always think to ourselves, "Oh hi! I remember you!" and not act on that, that we may feel a momentary flash of fear (or whatever) and not let that stop us in our overwhelming defeat of whatever challenges we're facing (physical, mental, emotional or spiritual.)

Mike your writing sounds just like Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche in the book on Shambhala Warriorhood... and neurologically what you (and he, and other Buddhists and mystics have been saying for thousands of years) is that "fake it til you make it" really DOES work--neurologically by creating new pathways instead of falling back into old tired ones that don't work. (A good book on this is Molecules of Emotion but I can ramble on a bit about the science if anyone's interested.)

Little Apple, I'm interested in your thoughts too!

[Little Apple]

I think "conditional self-worth" is a great way to describe it. I also think that if you treat those people with love and kindness in personal situations, they will see what that feels like and soon recognize the difference. Also refer back to my origional post here, seriously go back and look at it, it aplies still: If you coach them to take responsibility for themselves that's a huge step. Encourage them to make choices and then validate those choices, it empowers them. Remember though, to make a big difference to these people, you have to devote time and energy.

I also think the ceremony thing can work, but it does run the risk of making them dependant on this object. It could make them feel that the strength is in the rock or what-have-you, and not themselves, which is actually shifting the condition of their "conditional self-worth" not getting rid of it. Don't get me wrong, it can work and help a lot, just as long as it doesn't grow from a tool to a dependancy.

You're right though, it's a daily thing, I've worked people through stuff before and it's a long and bumpy road. I've also been worked through passive-agressive stuff by my big bro, and you DO get mad at them for a while. I think I was exploding at the poor guy for two months strait. I'm way heathier now though, honestly I wasn't in a place to fix myself, I needed his action. I'm much more self aware and proactive now though.

[treelizard]

I also think the ceremony thing can work, but it does run the risk of making them dependant on this object. It could make them feel that the strength is in the rock or what-have-you, and not themselves, which is actually shifting the condition of their "conditional self-worth" not getting rid of it. Don't get me wrong, it can work and help a lot, just as long as it doesn't grow from a tool to a dependancy.

Agreed. The object just serves as a tool and a reminder...

[Little Apple]

Hmmm, well Brewer, that would work as far as behavior goes, *giggle* I can totally see how that's an army technique though. It depends on a rough kind of retraining with little to no love or healing in it. No mistake, it'll change the way they operate, but I just feel like maybe it skips some steps.

[treelizard]

I've never done that particular excercise but it sounds powerful. I have had really good experiences in doing roleplays in SD classes, having somebody play your BG, tell 'em what to say, only change your response. A lot of people got stuck in old patterns and learn to work through them.

I think a lot of people do end up talking to themselves in the way other people talk to them, though, so I don't know it if would work in every instance. I will respectfully disagree with you Apple--I agree that it would need to be used with other techniques but wouldn't drop it altogether because it's not all "love and healing"--it depends on intent, really, and what can be more loving than teaching someone to break out of patterns, and awareness of those patterns to begin with? Sometimes healing is a bitch and a half and doesn't feel like "healing" at all...

What has worked for me to break out of some patterns (which of course we're all works in progress) has been to just say STOP!!! and ask myself 1) what needs to get done 2) how do I do it, as opposed to whatever it is I'm stuck in, usually not wanting to piss people off.

I can't agree with you on the accepting fear thing, Mike, because of... well, it's all summed up in the Jaco interview on my website, he says it way better than I ever could...

As far as science, the book I mentioned is mostly about how emotions are not located in the mind but along neural pathways (some of this is covered in the movie What the Bleep) but I am trying to figure out how much this affects one physiologically, specifically in how it relates to the output of ACTH and cortisol... I'll probably post about this later because I don't have my library here to cross-reference...

[treelizard]

I suppose I find it more useful (for me) to view it as attachment instead of fear. E.g., when trying to figure out why I am acting irrationally? Q: "What am I attached to?" A: This relationship (or job, or friendship, or opportunity, or dojo, or whatever). Q: What needs to get done and what's stopping me from doing it? How can I do it? What is most important? And keep those two questions until I figure it out.

Incidentally, I did want to ask for opinions on why so many women take so many WSD classes and yet nothing changes in their lives. What could the classes offer that they aren't? Or is it because so many people pretend to want to make changes, but aren't really up for it?

[treelizard]

No way! You don't have to be a Buddhist to stop letting attachments manipulate your behavior!

I think there's more to the reason why so many WSD classes often don't help women, but I haven't quite put my finger on it yet. I suspect that part of it is because you are reenacting situations where you are a victim, and spending just as much energy on that as you are on turning it around. I guess part of it IS that it's just a one-time thing for many and therefore doesn't require upheaval... but I think part of it might be due to the fact that the people who choose to go to these classes often have different motivations for it that might involve reliving/obsessing about/spending energy on their past traumas?

I suppose another way to word this question would be to ask why is it so hard to get women that really need training to a SD class, and if the women who need it the most aren't getting it, who is, and why?

[Tom Yum]

There's a reason that those personalities have to "hit rock bottom" before they'll make changes. Too much sympathy reinforces the behaviors that are killing them. In my opinion, it's no different at all with perpetual victims.

Yes.

Sometimes, you need a friend to step into your life and to straighten things out.

I've got a friend who puts his tail between his legs whose finally growing a pair after I thrashed the ultra-pacifist outta his attitude. May or may not have been my place to do it, but I'll be damned to see a friend of mine let some emotional B.S. own him.

[treelizard]

I've got a friend who puts his tail between his legs whose finally growing a pair after I thrashed the ultra-pacifist outta his attitude. May or may not have been my place to do it, but I'll be damned to see a friend of mine let some emotional B.S. own him.

The hard part (for me) is remembering that they have free will and need to continue to CHOOSE to move past it.