victim mentality...

[treelizard]

So like most of the people reading this, I have a friend (okay, actually I have several) who is always getting in bad relationships. It always follows the same pattern. She'll date a guy who seems really nice, get very emotionally involved quickly and by the time he starts showing his true colors, she's too attached to really notice. Basically thinks its her fault and tries to "fix" it. Then eventually they break up, she'll come crying to me, and then she'll start dating another guy and repeat the same pattern. Not a single woman I know doesn't recognize this pattern in other people... and yet they do it themselves. I'm of course at the point where whenever one of these gals tells me about their new perfect boyfriend, my reaction is, "I don't like him" before I even meet him, because I know that they haven't done any work on themselves to change the stupid fucking dysfunctional pattern, so of course they are energetically resonating with the guys that will take advantage of it. So how to break it?

I am still trying to figure that out, but I've noticed that it seems to be a manifestation (of different degrees) of what women who grew up in abusive families usually exhibit. It's sort of like they feel they are ultimately responsible for the BG's behavior, and the only time they are happy is not when they are away from the BG, but when the BG is acting like a "good guy," apologizes and tells them everything is okay and they're so so sorry. It's like they get addicted to this "calm" phase and basically trick themselves into thinking that they are responsible for it, that when they are "good" then their stupid abusive asshole boyfriend is "nice" and when he's being a stupid abusive asshole, it's they're fault. On some level, I suppose it IS ultimately their fault for staying in a relationship with a stupid abusive asshole, but of course that doesn't excuse that type of behavior.

The point I wanted to get to is that I've seen people replicate this pattern of behavior even when they are not hanging out with stupid abusive fucks, though. It sort of looks like... Mmm, basically if somebody is upset or in a bad mood, they think it is their fault and try to fix things, and they are really a hell of a lot happier when the person who was in a bad mood is in a good mood. So I used to think that the ultimate answer was to surround myself with really good, decent, high-quality, non-abusive nice guys (and gals), but now I think it goes much deeper than that. It is about how to establish an identity that isn't based on the other person's reactions. And of course there are all kinds of different ways this victim/martyr mentality plays out, most often I think it's in like a passive-agressive response, and the "victim" is sort of thinking, "This person really genuinely upset me" and so they get sad, but they don't want to say anything because they want to "fix" things and want the other person to "like" them and be in good guy mode, but then they get fed up with not saying anything, and then they lash out. I guess in a way it's sort of like the cycle of the abusive male, which is to lash out and then fix things, except the guy blames the woman for his lash-out and the woman usu. blames herself. Anyways, I know I am totally generalizing, but I think that is the way the pattern usually works.

So for those of you who work with survivors of sexual assault or child abuse or even just living in an emotionally abusive/dysfunctional family, I'm sure not a single one of you DOESN'T know the pattern I'm describing. My question is, how does one break out of it? How does one even realize they are doing it? What do you replace it with? Is there a neuro-linguistic programming technique for this? And for those of you who recommend therapy, I just want to say that I don't know a single woman who has gone to therapy for this type of thing where that has actually helped her. Not one. Perhaps it is the intense scrutiny, or bad psychologists, or maybe they really didn't want to change (not many people do) but I know people who have gone for YEARS who seem worse off than when they started... Anyways, just wanted to get a discussion going on this, I've been thinking about it tons. Also for those of you who teach WSD and have an awareness/avoidance component to your training, do you go into this at all? Or do you just stick to "have your keys in your hand before you leave the car" type of stuff? Because ultimately I think that victims attract predators and that one has to go very deep underneath this deeply ingrained mindset to actually ultimately change anything.

Looking forward to long, in-depth responses!! Please.

[Tom Yum]

Dating

Why do younger women like bad guys?

[Tom Yum]

Dating

Why do younger women like bad guys? or like your thread suggests, bad guys that they want to fix?

[treelizard]

I dunno, why do guys date women that are crazy?

I guess the theory is that it's an energetic pattern they pick up in childhood that they resonate with and have trouble breaking out of because they are used to it and don't realize they are doing it. I think low self-esteem has something to do with it too...

Why do younger women like bad guys? or like your thread suggests, bad guys that they want to fix?

[Sagacious Lu]

Why do younger women like bad guys?

Because they're safe. They want action and they aren't ready to let someone get close enough to them to have a serious relationship yet. For that reason they'll specifically avoid guys that might really be a good partner over the long run. At the same time they don't want to be a slut so that means that they have to have a boyfriend because the relationship makes what they're doing okay. They can tell themselve they love their boyfriend and that they are a good girl friend so their conscience doesn't bother them. At the same time deep down in their heart they know their relationship with their wanna-be rock star, or drug dealer, or punk or whatever isn't really going to go anywhere. This way they get to have their fun without really giving up their freedom and they get to do it all guilt free.

I'm not sure if that's what Treelizard is talking about here though. @ Treelizard, what do you mean by abuse? Do you mean generally disrespectful treatment or are you talking about physical violence? Almost everyone goes through a few bad relationships before they find one that works; IMHO that doesn't mean you have to make a big emotional change that's just part of life. On the other hand if you're talking about girls that show a pattern of dating guys that are doing truly brutal things (ie. physical abuse as opposed to just yelling when they're mad) than that shows some seriously self-destructive behavior.

[Tom Yum]

Because they're safe. They want action and they aren't ready to let someone get close enough to them to have a serious relationship yet. For that reason they'll specifically avoid guys that might really be a good partner over the long run.

While I'd like to disagree with you, I can't. I would add that its not just the closeness that they are uncomfortable with, its traits like gentleness, patience and kindness that are alien to alot of women.

On the other hand if you're talking about girls that show a pattern of dating guys that are doing truly brutal things (ie. physical abuse as opposed to just yelling when they're mad) than that shows some seriously self-destructive behavior.

I think that is what Tree Lizard is asking about. Its very sad to hear about women who go through this.

I knew someone that was involved with someone who had been through one of these. It went deeper into her childhood I think. She was a very sweet and loveable person, but frequently ill. It sucks when someone so good is allways bed ridden; it'll break one's heart again and again and again....

[Tom Yum]

I dunno, why do guys date women that are crazy?

Mostly because we let thinking dwell at lower levels.
When a man lets flesh decide, he chooses unwisely.

[treelizard]

I guess I ultimately don't see much of a distinction between guys that are emotionally abusive and guys that are physically abusive, because I one follows another, there are just different degrees to it. The friend I was referring to is just dating manipulative emotionally slimy guys that haven't hit her yet (that I know of) but I have other friends who have been and continue to be in physically abusive relationships. But the cycle is pretty much the same, and my friend who dates guys that are verbally abusive and thinks its her fault would probably have the same reaction (which is self-blame) if the guy got physical.

My educated guess is that predators would pick up on the patterns of self-blame, etc. just from everyday interactions. In fact, I'm sure of it. I can tell right away from having a conversation with someone whether or not they will tell me if I say something that bothers them. I took this WSD course in London one weekend where we practiced verbal boundary setting, but we also practiced learning what it feels like to cross someone's boundaries. We split up into predator and victim teams, made up scenarios, and the "victim" would raise their hand when the "predator" crossed the line. (It was hard for me to do because I would raise my hand before they ever said anything, lol) Anyways, the point of the exercise was to learn that you can tell when you cross a line before the other person says something, so therefore I assume people who cross my boundaries know it on some level (or they are stupid, in either case I have to tell them) so you won't sit and make excuses for them ("Maybe he didn't REALIZE I really wanted him to go away when I said so twelve times"). There are of course exceptions (I had a long talk with one guy once who would always stand too close to me and then realized he did that with everyone. I still needed to tell him to back off though, but I don't think he was aware of it until I said something.) But for the most part...

I'm also saying that JUST BY HAVING THAT MENTALITY that you are responsible for someone else's behavior and need to apologize for it or "fix it" you are attracting predators. I'm also saying that it's damn hard to break out of. And I'll even admit I do this myself. Almost every woman does. They'll say things like, "Was it something I said?" or "What did I do wrong?" when a guy is acting off his rocker. Some women snap out of it and realize they are doing it, and some don't. (And yes there are crazy women, and I'm generalizing, but it's hard not to.)

I guess my question then is two-fold. 1) How do you teach women to recognize when they are acting like a victim and therefore likely attracting predators, so they can break out of that behavior? 2) How big of a role does this play in WSD? Is this just as or more important than teaching groin kicks and eye strikes?

[Tom Yum]

. They'll say things like, "Was it something I said?" or "What did I do wrong?" when a guy is acting off his rocker. Some women snap out of it and realize they are doing it, and some don't. (And yes there are crazy women, and I'm generalizing, but it's hard not to.)?

When is a guy acting off his rocker? Describe some behaviors so we can get a better idea what you mean.

Is a guy acting off his rocker when he takes out his frustrations from work or personal life on his woman? or if he verbally assaults her when she has a downer and doesn't feel like doing what he feels like?

In these instances a lack of patience, control and communication = acting off his rocker.

. I guess my question then is two-fold. 1) How do you teach women to recognize when they are acting like a victim and therefore likely attracting predators, so they can break out of that behavior? 2) How big of a role does this play in WSD? Is this just as or more important than teaching groin kicks and eye strikes?

I'd guess that you need to be able to weigh words with actions, stay aware of her surroundings and develop the fortitude to speak up or act if something doesn't seem right.

Perhaps regular coaching from someone who can build her spirits?

I don't know if that's helpfull....

[Tom Yum]

More thoughts

Hey Treeliz, even the healthiest relationships usually do 2 things.

1. They move on to the next level, which could be preferrably marriage or sometimes a partnership agreement.

2. End.

Sometimes couples don't see eye to eye, usually one person in a relationship wants to take it to the next level whereas another would prefer to enjoy it for what it is here and now and not worry about it later.

[treelizard]

Examples of a guy being off his rocker... Let's see... Asking, "Where were you?" the second a woman walks in the door without saying hello first, and telling her she's lying when she says she was out with a friend. Or a guy that will blow up and storm off based on his interpretation of something that happened without getting any information. Or just yelling and slamming doors, I guess. Those are some examples... And of course there are more minor examples that I don't even think are that big of a deal, except when women assume they are responsible for them. I have a coworker who always takes things people say as a reflection of who she is. One time somebody asked her if she was mad, and she spent the whole rest of the night trying to figure out what it was she did or said or something, that made him say that. It couldn't *possibly* be because of a misinterpretation of her behavior on his part. Or one time I was being sort of quiet at work because I had gotten like two hours sleep the night before and was distracted with some personal problems, and somewhere around the end of our shift, I mentioned to her that I was having trouble with my no-caffeine diet due to sleep deprivation, and she breathed this huge sigh of relief because she'd spent the whole shift thinking I was mad at her and trying to figure out what she did. I'm not saying people are never mad at her and she's always reading into things that aren't there, but that she always thinks everything everybody does is her own fault. So where does one draw the line between "I'm going to try to be aware of my actions and how people respond to them, and possibly tweak my behavior a bit so that I don't unnecessarily offend people" (something that many martial artists should be doing more of imo ) and "i'm going to take responsibility for other people's dysfunctional behavior and/or bad moods, because it's obviously my fault, and i need to 'fix' it"?

I guess I see this whole situation with guys too, so maybe I'll try to do the male-centric translation of this type of behavior, which is a.k.a. "nice guy" syndrome. The guy who is normal and functional and stable and nice, that has crazy chicks calling him constantly whining about their fucked up boyfriends. What is the distinction between him a) being a good stable friend and giving her a shoulder to cry on or b) fooling himself into thinking that his crazy friend is actually going to do anything to change her situation, or worse, thinking that if he just plays it right, she will dump her asshole boyfriend and date him instead, because he's "nice" (problem is, girls like that don't date nice guys. they date assholes, and have nice guy friends to use as doormats, whether they realize it or not).

The difference between these two scenarios of course is that the women in question are more likely to get physically assaulted, whereas the men are just wasting their time letting women vent about situations they will never change (even if they do dump mr. asshole, they'll find a new mr. asshole the next day or week or month)

My conclusion is that everyone is crazy.

[Blue Wave Gym]

yep

hey why can't I post on this thread I typed a long well thought out response to this topic and it wouldn't let me post and I was logged in, oh well lost for the ages I guess. I'll some it up then men who hit women or mistreat womne aren't men period. Real men leave if things can't be worked out without they guy mistreating the girl or vice versa. Maybe I'm just different/don't undrestand but that's my 2 cent's.

[Sagacious Lu]

I guess I ultimately don't see much of a distinction between guys that are emotionally abusive and guys that are physically abusive, because I one follows another, there are just different degrees to it. The friend I was referring to is just dating manipulative emotionally slimy guys that haven't hit her yet (that I know of) but I have other friends who have been and continue to be in physically abusive relationships. But the cycle is pretty much the same, and my friend who dates guys that are verbally abusive and thinks its her fault would probably have the same reaction (which is self-blame) if the guy got physical.

My educated guess is that predators would pick up on the patterns of self-blame, etc. just from everyday interactions. In fact, I'm sure of it. I can tell right away from having a conversation with someone whether or not they will tell me if I say something that bothers them. I took this WSD course in London one weekend where we practiced verbal boundary setting, but we also practiced learning what it feels like to cross someone's boundaries. We split up into predator and victim teams, made up scenarios, and the "victim" would raise their hand when the "predator" crossed the line. (It was hard for me to do because I would raise my hand before they ever said anything, lol) Anyways, the point of the exercise was to learn that you can tell when you cross a line before the other person says something, so therefore I assume people who cross my boundaries know it on some level (or they are stupid, in either case I have to tell them) so you won't sit and make excuses for them ("Maybe he didn't REALIZE I really wanted him to go away when I said so twelve times"). There are of course exceptions (I had a long talk with one guy once who would always stand too close to me and then realized he did that with everyone. I still needed to tell him to back off though, but I don't think he was aware of it until I said something.) But for the most part...

I'm also saying that JUST BY HAVING THAT MENTALITY that you are responsible for someone else's behavior and need to apologize for it or "fix it" you are attracting predators. I'm also saying that it's damn hard to break out of. And I'll even admit I do this myself. Almost every woman does. They'll say things like, "Was it something I said?" or "What did I do wrong?" when a guy is acting off his rocker. Some women snap out of it and realize they are doing it, and some don't. (And yes there are crazy women, and I'm generalizing, but it's hard not to.)

I guess my question then is two-fold. 1) How do you teach women to recognize when they are acting like a victim and therefore likely attracting predators, so they can break out of that behavior? 2) How big of a role does this play in WSD? Is this just as or more important than teaching groin kicks and eye strikes?

What you're describing sounds to me like an incredibly insecure person. If a person can't express themself at some point they will make themself a victim even if the other person is trying to be nice. I agree that I can usually tell if someone is uncomfortable, but not always. You're example of the guy that didn't realize he was invading your personal space is right on; a lot of people really don't realize what they're doing even though it seems like it should be obvious. If you don't let these people know when they cross your lines in a very straight forward and honest way than they are blameless and YOU DESERVE WHAT YOU GET. I find that when dealing with extremely passive people I will eventually lose my patience and respect for the person. I make a real effort not to mistreat the people around me but if someone is that insecure I will eventually keep pushing them until they push back (figuratively speaking of course) not because I want to hurt them (although this does occasionally cause problems for me) or to establish dominance but because I'm looking to get a sense of who they are. I need them to stop bullshitting and catering to what they think I want to hear and just be honest and straight forward with me. I have deliberately not mentioned gender because I've met guys like this too- although it may be a more common problem for women. Personally if I were dating someone as paralized by insecurity as what you're describing I would inevitably wind up being what they might consider "emotionally abusive" but before it got very far I would become disgusted with the girl and end the relationship. Yes there are predators that will take advantage of weak people, but with that type of attitude you're going to constantly get your feelings hurt even by people who are essentially well-intentioned and kind hearted. I'm at a complete loss when it comes to teaching a weak person to be strong though.

[Tom Yum]

Examples of a guy being off his rocker... Let's see... Asking, "Where were you?" the second a woman walks in the door without saying hello first, and telling her she's lying when she says she was out with a friend. Or a guy that will blow up and storm off based on his interpretation of something that happened without getting any information. Or just yelling and slamming doors, I guess.

The "where were you" scenario sounds like insecurity. Usually the greeting should be "Hey babe!" followed by gigantic hug, perhaps a kiss and then saying something like "Where you been?"

So where does one draw the line between "I'm going to try to be aware of my actions and how people respond to them, and possibly tweak my behavior a bit so that I don't unnecessarily offend people" (something that many martial artists should be doing more of imo ) and "i'm going to take responsibility for other people's dysfunctional behavior and/or bad moods, because it's obviously my fault, and i need to 'fix' it"?

I guess it means thinking things through, but avoiding the paralysis of analysis and like you said understanding when another person has a problem that you can't fix but also thinking about the way you might have approached a person.

For example, if you talk like a drill sargeant and bark at people all the time, some people might look at you weird whereas others might not. You might think "what the hell is wrong with these weirdos" even though you talk with a very, very aggressive tone that seems totally natural to you but rather loud and boisterous to others.

What is the distinction between him a) being a good stable friend and giving her a shoulder to cry on or b) fooling himself into thinking that his crazy friend is actually going to do anything to change her situation, or worse, thinking that if he just plays it right, she will dump her asshole boyfriend and date him instead, because he's "nice" (problem is, girls like that don't date nice guys. they date assholes, and have nice guy friends to use as doormats, whether they realize it or not).

This is getting too complicated, but I'll say that in situations a & b, you are still in the frienship zone. In c, you're getting into something else and you're absolutely right about girls like that that love assholes (about 90% of women under the age of 25).

I guess that sets the standard for their long-term relationships.

If guys know that alot of women only respond to assholes and get bored in comfortable relationships, do you think guys in general are more or less likely to be assholes?

Just a thought.

I hear alot of women ask where are the nice guys?

[treelizard]

If guys know that alot of women only respond to assholes and get bored in comfortable relationships, do you think guys in general are more or less likely to be assholes?

LOL!!! I think they are more likely to be nice, and whine a lot about why the assholes get all the girls, because it is not in their nature to be abusive or mean. Then they will sit and listen to their female friends whine about their fucked up relationship they wont' do anything about, because they feel if they do this long enough, the gal will suddenly wake up, leave her boyfriend who doesn't deserve her, and run to him. Which will never happen. If he would just directly ask her out, she would say no, and then he could move on to asking out a NICE GIRL who will say, "Why yes, I would love to World Extreme Cagefighting match with you! I thought you'd never ask!" But instead he plays this passive game with the odds against him, and doesn't even realize it.

Seriously though, there's a difference between being a nice guy and being a doormat. Women don't like doormats. They want to date guys that will call them on their shit, not guys they can walk all over.

This should probably be in open access by now, too, lol.