Exaggerating about testicle squeeze?

[nordmann]

Technically, you may be right

I suppose under certain circumstances a man may be able to take trauma to the testes and still keep functioning. I'm hard pressed to imagine how though, given the effect it normally has, which seems to short-circuit any intentions he may otherwise have had. If the man is so dusted on PCP or pumped on adrenaline that he can tolerate a kick that connects with his nuts with any force to speak of, then I'm guessing you're dealing with an extreme case. In such a case, you've got a really bad-news opponent on your hands, and you're going to have to resort to permanently damaging or life-threatening attacks to stop him.

Under the vast majority of circumstances a groin kick will be very effective if you get the chance to to do it. And even if you only use the possibility of a groin attack as a threat, this reduces the effectiveness of of a man's overall defenses, which must then be divided between two entirely different areas of the body. If he thinks your going for the groin, then he won't be able to defend his neck as well as he would if he didn't have to worry about a groin attack. If you neglect to use this vulnerability against a man, your effectiveness against him in a real fight goes down.

I think the key point about the groin attack for self-defense purposes is really about its typical effectiveness in disabling a man relative to how hard it is to pull the attack off. Imagine a hypothetical situation in which you took someone's grandma and told her that a big strong man was going to attack her, but he was going to give her the head start and stand perfectly still so she could get in one and only one hit as the first blow of the fight, after which he would attack her if he still could. What attack would you recommend in this scenario as her absolute best shot that she could most likely do successfully without lots of training? Maybe a really strong eye gouge, but I'm not sure that would be 100% effective, either. People have eyelids that can be squinshed shut really tightly, and not everyone has strong fingers. But anyone other than a real cripple can kick the balls hard enough to drop most guys.

No attack is 100% effective, but among attacks that the average untrained person can execute, I still hold that the kick in the balls is one of the best ones going relative to other attacks.

[Garland]

Jubaji...little help here...I'm tired, and you seem to enjoy this shit more.

[gregimotis]

..........................

[osopardo]

Under the vast majority of circumstances a groin kick will be very effective if you get the chance to to do it. .

Not true.

...anyone other than a real cripple can kick the balls hard enough to drop most guys...I still hold that the kick in the balls is one of the best ...

I can list several otherwise healthy and relatively fit people of varying ages (whom I know personally) who have neither the balance, flexibility or speed to be able to deliver a kick capable of incapacitiating an attacker.



.

[nordmann]

Oh by the way...

Something you said, Garland, was that the glans (head) of the penis is sensitive. This is technically true, but it needs to be clarified that the penis is NOT useful as a strike point. It is true that the area right around the tip is sensitive skin, and it would hurt a lot to get it cut or abraded, I suppose. But, as every guy knows, you can squeeze it or hit it and it won't hurt much unless you use tons of power.

No, the penis has absolutely nothing to do with the unique effect that occurs then the testicles get hit. Again, if you're not a guy who has been hit there, I really don't think it's possible for you to understand how unusual the effect of a hit there is. I've been hit there. I do understand all too well. It doesn't just hurt--it removes your free will and your ability to function in even the most basic ways.

So don't consider the penis a target--if you don't hit the balls themselves, you're doing nothing but wasting a tempo. It amazes me how many women don't understand this fundamental fact. I wonder how many women have lost fights with their rapists because they thought hitting the penis would do something and didn't know that you have to hit the balls.

Also, I would be very skeptical of videos or stories I see on the web about guys intentionally damaging their testicles. Maybe it happened by accident while doing some jackass stunt, but no man can just reach down and do actual permanent damage his own testicles unless he's totally dusted out on PCP. There's all sorts of faked stuff out there. Some guys do have prosthetic nuts made of silicone, so maybe they are putting on a show with those. I don't know.

Those guys with the stun guns were just touching the front area of their groins (their penises) which is not the same. I could probably do that myself, although I doubt I would willingly choose to. I could maybe see tolerating actual stuff happening to the penis. Putting that in a vise would hurt no more than putting a finger in there. In fact, it would probably hurt less.

But real injuries to the balls?? Uh-unnh. There's just no way unless powerful drugs are involved. Do guys also jam knives into the backs of their eye sockets, disembowel themselves, or calmly roast their skin off with a propane torch on videos on the web? I don't think so. Doing those things would produce the worst pain levels it is possible to feel, and that is why people don't do them in videos for real. Rupturing a nut would also produce the worst pain it is possible to feel, and so you're not going to see that happening for real, either.

[nordmann]

Not true.
I can list several otherwise healthy and relatively fit people of varying ages (whom I know personally) who have neither the balance, flexibility or speed to be able to deliver a kick capable of incapacitiating an attacker.
.

Well, OK. I suppose in those cases they are simply toast if they ever need to defend themselves. If you're in such sad shape that even a rising kick (or knee, slap, punch, elbow, ect.) to the groin is beyond your potential repertoire, then what are your chances of pulling off "Intercepting the Ram"? Not so good. See my point?

[Sagacious Lu]

Something you said, Garland, was that the glans (head) of the penis is sensitive. This is technically true, but it needs to be clarified that the penis is NOT useful as a strike point. It is true that the area right around the tip is sensitive skin, and it would hurt a lot to get it cut or abraded, I suppose. But, as every guy knows, you can squeeze it or hit it and it won't hurt much unless you use tons of power.

Thanks for clarifying that

[nordmann]

Nice byline, by the way: Komm süsser Tod. It's one of my fav hits. Bach did a great job with that one, eh?

[Tom Yum]

Thanks for clarifying that

LOL...good one.

Hey now, we're trying to keep it PG-13.

[Garland]

Again, if you're not a guy who has been hit there, I really don't think it's possible for you to understand how unusual the effect of a hit there is. I've been hit there. I do understand all too well. It doesn't just hurt--it removes your free will and your ability to function in even the most basic ways.

Maybe it happened by accident while doing some jackass stunt, but no man can just reach down and do actual permanent damage his own testicles unless he's totally dusted out on PCP.

Do guys also jam knives into the backs of their eye sockets, disembowel themselves, or calmly roast their skin off with a propane torch on videos on the web? I don't think so.

I have been hit in the nuts, on several occassions, with varying degrees of incapacitation...because it's hard to land a flush shot unless the person on the recieving end is not paying attention.

Yes...they can.

People have done those things, probably not on youtube, but I can cite a number of people who have disembowled themselves, castrated themselves, cut out their eyes, and burned themselves horribly or to death with gasoline.

What about putting cigarettes out on yourself? I knew these kids who used to play "chicken" with a lit smoke...they'd press their forearms together and put the lit smoke in between and lock their fingers so that they wouldn't shake or fidget the smoke off of their arms...and some would have it burn all the way to the end.

What about suspensions? People willingly hang from hooks to induce trance states...this is a modern thing stolen from the Native American Sun Dances and Oh Kee Pa ceremonies and several south-east Asian, Hindu, and obscure Muslim sect's practices.

What about testicle peircings? The Yakuza style pearls...P.A's? Apalangs?

[GranFire]

Too much information....intererly....

[nordmann]

Well, OK

I have been hit in the nuts, on several occassions, with varying degrees of incapacitation...because it's hard to land a flush shot unless the person on the recieving end is not paying attention.

Yes...they can.

People have done those things, probably not on youtube, but I can cite a number of people who have disembowled themselves, castrated themselves, cut out their eyes, and burned themselves horribly or to death with gasoline.

What about putting cigarettes out on yourself? I knew these kids who used to play "chicken" with a lit smoke...they'd press their forearms together and put the lit smoke in between and lock their fingers so that they wouldn't shake or fidget the smoke off of their arms...and some would have it burn all the way to the end.

What about suspensions? People willingly hang from hooks to induce trance states...this is a modern thing stolen from the Native American Sun Dances and Oh Kee Pa ceremonies and several south-east Asian, Hindu, and obscure Muslim sect's practices.

What about testicle peircings? The Yakuza style pearls...P.A's? Apalangs?

OK. I accept your point that some men can, under certain conditions, tolerate severe trauma to their testes. There are some very weird, drugged, or just stone-cold-crazy people out there doing things to themselves and to others that the rest of us couldn't imagine ever wanting to do. Are you saying that men hang themselves up by their testicles to induce a trance state?? Oh my god! Some trance state that would be. Neurogenic shock from pain is probably more likely the case. Anyway, these are exceptional cases, and I'm guessing they have little actual relevance to women's self defense against average guys on the street in the real world.

If you set aside a few rare cases, I'm guessing that the most likely real-world scenario where a male attacker would be able to withstand any reasonably well executed rising kick to the groin would be that he's wearing a high-quality, properly-fitted cup. You can buy those at any Modell's, and it's not hard to imagine a street-fighter getting the bright idea to do this. Also, you generally can't just tell by looking whether he's protected. So that's about the only really good argument I can think of for not dropping a groin shot if your opponent leaves himself open.

Of course, if he's trained, he's very unlikely to leave himself open in the first place. I think that's a statement of the obvious. The reason that protecting the groin is such a key objective of MA training is precisely that the groin is such a devastating target on men.

So then, how many people who accost women on the subway are all that highly trained? Based on what I hear in the news here in New York City, it sounds like the majority of cases involve a hopelessly untrained, often drunk, and usually rather dim-witted stumble-bum attacker whose only real advantage is that his intended victim has been conditioned by our society to believe that she has no chance against a male attacker unless she has years of MA training. What a tragedy this is. The result is that she no idea that she could probably (not certainly, but probably) kick the crap out of him if she were willing--no, make that EAGER--to go crazy on him: in rapid succession and with no hesitation, rip his face or throat with a fistful of keys while smacking the side of his neck or his temple with her purse, kick his testicles up to his chin while his hands are protecting his face and neck, and then punt his head as if she were doing an NFL football kickoff with it when he bends over in agony from the groin kick.

If all women--even untrained ones--were willing to fight this way against their attackers, the rape statistics would drop by half overnight. Instead, most women live in fear of defending themselves because of all the misinformation that's floating around out there. Yes, men are stronger than women--usually much stronger. This only makes the strategic advantage presented by the testicles all the more important to them. Telling women that groin strikes are not worth the effort because they only work some of the time and even then they are only slightly effective (when the real-world crime reporting evidence shows that they are debilitating more often than not) is not a step toward empowering women to defend themselves.

Do you read the news much? Do you hear about cases where women have fought off wannabe attackers? I haven't taken a tally over the years, but I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that the single most frequently used strike that is included as part of a successful defense is some type of blow to the groin. Often--though certainly not always--this single strike is all that was necessary to allow the intended victim to escape. This high rate of successful real-world groin attacks occurs in spite of the fact that every man knows he had damn well better not get hit there. Going by why I hear about in these real-life defense situations, it would seem that the groin is not only a very effective place if you succesfully land the blow, but it's even a difficult part of the body for an untrained man to defend, too, since they seem to have a rather poor track record of keeping it protected against even small girls and little old ladies with no MA training.

Sure, you hear about the odd case where the woman landed a groin kick and, for whatever reason, he was able to keep coming in some capacity. In those cases, I'm guessing that she didn't have much of a chance against him anyway because of a large disparity in fighting ability. Had she tried any other untrained attack, it probably would also have failed, don't you suppose? There is always a possibility of any strike failing to achieve its intended effect. Groin shots are not unique in that regard. But I still say that, as soon as avoidance is no longer an option, you should give your opponent all your best shots--groin included--the very first chance you get. If that doesn't stop him enough for you to escape the situation, then you're probably just SOL no matter what you do, but at least you went down fighting.

And to date, I still have never heard of an actual, real-world case of the much-touted and widely-feared phenomenon where you kick your attacker's balls and he suddenly blows up into the Incredible Hulk, twice as strong and twice as fast as before. I don't know who came up with that fairytale, but it has done a lot to damage women's ability to defend themselves when they hear it and believe it.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse on this matter. I have a personal reason why I think it is extremely important to empower women with accurate information about how to neutralize a man. My wife was sexually assaulted and badly beaten more than a decade ago in Tampa, FL. (The irony of the situation is that she travels all the way from big, bad, New York City at the height of the crack wars when violent crime here was out of control, just to end up in the ICU in some freakin' little no-name, piss-ant, third-rate cow town.) Sorry. I still have to vent about that.

Anyway, she started out by trying to talk her way out of it, and continued to try to reason with him even after he had thrown her to the ground and made his intent to rape her obvious. It was only when he started beating the daylights out of her despite her lack of aggression to him that she realized that she had no choice but to fight back. And so when she was lying on her back and he bent over her to pull her panties down, she dug her fingernails in under his chin and urinated up into his face, and that got him off of her immediately. Unfortunately, this was not before she had sustained a concussion, a broken nose, damage to a cornea, and was left with a face that was almost unrecognizable.

Goddammit. Even today, I can't talk or write about that without trembling from anger.

When my wife thinks about why she didn't act sooner to defend herself, she realizes that her fear of escalating the situation was the only thing that stopped her. She knows she probably could have prevented injury to herself if she had vigorously taken any of several early opportunities to fight back. The clearest opportunity, I believe (I wasn't there, obviously) was that, after he had thrown her down on the ground and was standing over her with his legs on either side of her hips, she remembers being perfectly aware that she had an easy, clear shot to stomp upward into his groin. She didn't do it only because she was afraid to try it. This fear was instilled in her by all those horror stories about how hitting a man in the groin doesn't really work and only makes him mad and more dangerous. I couldn't believe when I found out that she actually believed that load of crap. That fairytale is partly responsible for my wife's injuries, which took months to recover from. And that's not mentioning mental injuries that will probably never completely go away.

I don't want any more women being brutalized, traumatized, and hospitalized because they are afraid to kick a man's testicles. Don't be afraid! Bash those beans to a paste and get yourself out of there!

[Garland]

I think agression, forward drive, and bad intentions are all good tools for self defense. That being said...you won't always have time to load keys into your hand to defend yourself...and in some cases all it will do is cause small lacerations to the face. (I'm speaking from experience)

There are other targets that work far better than the testicles, such as the eyes and the throat. A woman will find it very difficult to grab an attacker by the balls with the right leverage if their wearing pants...don't believe me, put some jeans on and try it yourself. A c-grip to the throat, any forcefull attack to the throat, thumbs in the eyes, biting the soft tissue around the face (cheek, nose, ear, around the eye), elbows to the eyesocket, and properly executed headbutts are all good close range tools to help gain control of a bad situation. Environmental weapons are good, but some are better than others...i.e. keys cause cuts unless you are accurate enough or can manage to force them into the eye. Ear rips also work.

A knee to the nuts is probably the highest percentage groin attack I can think of, and even then...it's not an end-all...you HAVE to follow up.

It's true a well placed kick to the groin, IF it lands flush, has the POTENTIAL to drop a man...but you shouldn't count on it as the best option, you have to have other tools, and be able to adopt new strategies and adapt to the attacker's energy (their response) in a very fluid, real time, and brutal way.

A good self defense program for women should include other things too-
threat awareness and assessment and avoidance
verbal self defense
physical cues to make themselves look like a harder target for assault...such as edging, body language, how they move and operate in public
common sense- staying with friends if possible, asking a bouncer/security guard/trusted friend to accompany them out to their car, not going into dangerous places, etc.

THEN physical skills, how to draw and use weapons in a self defense situation, applying skills under duress...etc.

These things help even the odds...and the best defense is prevention...but the skills should be there, they should be simple and high percentage, and they should be extreme, done in rapid succession, and with the right intent.

[nordmann]

I think agression, forward drive, and bad intentions are all good tools for self defense. That being said...you won't always have time to load keys into your hand to defend yourself...and in some cases all it will do is cause small lacerations to the face. (I'm speaking from experience)

There are other targets that work far better than the testicles, such as the eyes and the throat. A woman will find it very difficult to grab an attacker by the balls with the right leverage if their wearing pants...don't believe me, put some jeans on and try it yourself. A c-grip to the throat, any forcefull attack to the throat, thumbs in the eyes, biting the soft tissue around the face (cheek, nose, ear, around the eye), elbows to the eyesocket, and properly executed headbutts are all good close range tools to help gain control of a bad situation. Environmental weapons are good, but some are better than others...i.e. keys cause cuts unless you are accurate enough or can manage to force them into the eye. Ear rips also work.

A knee to the nuts is probably the highest percentage groin attack I can think of, and even then...it's not an end-all...you HAVE to follow up.

It's true a well placed kick to the groin, IF it lands flush, has the POTENTIAL to drop a man...but you shouldn't count on it as the best option, you have to have other tools, and be able to adopt new strategies and adapt to the attacker's energy (their response) in a very fluid, real time, and brutal way.

A good self defense program for women should include other things too-
threat awareness and assessment and avoidance
verbal self defense
physical cues to make themselves look like a harder target for assault...such as edging, body language, how they move and operate in public
common sense- staying with friends if possible, asking a bouncer/security guard/trusted friend to accompany them out to their car, not going into dangerous places, etc.

THEN physical skills, how to draw and use weapons in a self defense situation, applying skills under duress...etc.

These things help even the odds...and the best defense is prevention...but the skills should be there, they should be simple and high percentage, and they should be extreme, done in rapid succession, and with the right intent.

I'm not disagreeing with any of this. I also don't think that I or anyone else in this thread has suggested that the old kick in the nuts constitutes a complete self-defense strategy. Yes, absolutely, you should develop the full range of self defense skills, emphasizing avoidance first and foremost.

But I think we need to also guard against propogating this weird urban myth where a man's groin is somehow not a particularly effective target for strikes, based on the twin fantasy notions that the male genitals are not exceptionally sensitive to impacts and that groin strikes will somehow risk enraging your attacker more than strikes somewhere else. This is not reality. It is misinformation that almost seems specificially intended to weaken the ability of women to defend themselves against men by casting doubt on the single biggest strategic advantage they have over us in a fight.

[nordmann]

Just to clarify

Also, just to clarify, I'm not emphasizing the kick as the only good strike method against the groin. Lots of other ways work, too, and you're probably right about the knee being the most reliable one.

As a matter of fact, during most fights, the groin is rarely out of range of all possible attack methods an opponent has at his or her disposal. This is yet another thing that makes the groin such a liability. It must be constantly guarded from hand, knee, and foot attacks, and even elbow, heel and stomping attacks under certain circumstances.

If you take the groin off the table as a desirable target (the way some men seem to want to do), then you go from two regions of a man's body that are vulnerable to relatively low-power strikes that most non-MA specialists can succeed with, to one. And that one remaining area (the head and neck area) is right near where the arms connect to the body, where they are perfectly positioned to protect it. If that one area is all your opponent is absolutely required to defend against someone who does not live, eat, and breath MA, then it becomes much harder to get anything through.