Guns

[Little Apple]

Do you guys think that gun defense needs to start being more in-depth?

I was just talking to a guy who was saying how some of the common defense techniques are dangerous on certain types of guns. It was his opinion that people in general need to know about the specifics of different guns: where the safety switch is on different models and how to know if it's on; where the pin release to eject the clip or release the barrel is; which guns can still fire after the clip is ejected if a bullet is already in the chamber, etc.

Those are all things that I don't know, because I don't know guns. I've had gun defense included in some of the places I have trained, and I've never been taught any of that.

Do you guys think martial art places that are geared towards self defense should be teaching this, or would you say it's not their place?

[Tant01]

Another victim mindset...

Do you guys think that gun defense needs to start being more in-depth?

I was just talking to a guy who was saying how some of the common defense techniques are dangerous on certain types of guns. It was his opinion that people in general need to know about the specifics of different guns: where the safety switch is on different models and how to know if it's on; where the pin release to eject the clip or release the barrel is; which guns can still fire after the clip is ejected if a bullet is already in the chamber, etc.

Those are all things that I don't know, because I don't know guns. I've had gun defense included in some of the places I have trained, and I've never been taught any of that.

Do you guys think martial art places that are geared towards self defense should be teaching this, or would you say it's not their place?

You're the one SHOOTING the gun, right? It would be good to know all of these things about the gun you're using.

If you mean defending against a gunman it becomes less important. Sure it would look cool to unload his weapon for him by ejecting his clip but if your hands can get the ATTACHMENT on his weapon it's best to strip the entire weapon from his grasp (and hit him with it)

In my humble opinion...

[darrianation]

Then shoot him with it, shoot him to slide lock and if he's still on his feet hit him with it and repeat as necassary.

[Tant01]

That's one way.

Then shoot him with it, shoot him to slide lock and (then) if he's still on his feet hit him with it and repeat as necassary.

You might post a disclaimer with advise like that. LOL I have a small caliber defensive weapon so I tend to agree with you.

Here's the problem. Are you still in fear of your life (or serious bodily injury) after he is disarmed? Is that fear "reasonable"... ??? Will the jury think it was reasonable?

If he has a second weapon Or even looks like he might be about to deploy it...

See above.


*SLIDE LOCK. After you have discharged ALL of the ammunition in the clip the lock function keeps the slide open...

[treelizard]

Take a specific gun class or more than one gun class taught by gun people. Bring your own weapon if you have one.

[Ardith]

Do you guys think that gun defense needs to start being more in-depth?

I was just talking to a guy who was saying how some of the common defense techniques are dangerous on certain types of guns. It was his opinion that people in general need to know about the specifics of different guns: where the safety switch is on different models and how to know if it's on; where the pin release to eject the clip or release the barrel is; which guns can still fire after the clip is ejected if a bullet is already in the chamber, etc.

Those are all things that I don't know, because I don't know guns. I've had gun defense included in some of the places I have trained, and I've never been taught any of that.

Do you guys think martial art places that are geared towards self defense should be teaching this, or would you say it's not their place?

Guns are ranged weapons. If he's right on top of you, it's very possible for his gun to become your gun.

[Ahsen]

Join the army

[Little Apple]

ha ha ^_^ I don't have a gun, nor am I planning on getting one. The conversation with this dude just made me think about all those gun defense techniques you learn in self defense classes. He was REALLY convinced that you can't teach gun defense without educating on all the above stuff about guns; that some of those basic disarms are dangerous depending on the model. Since I don't know anything about guns, I decided to ask about it.

My main question was whether you think self defense needs to expand to include basic fire arm knowledge. I'm not suggesting that all Aikido, Karate, and boxing gyms suddenly offer a gun class. Just wondering if some more specialized firearm knowledge should be taught in self defense centered martial art classes. Mike Brewer seems to be of the opinion that martial art places, even those that focus on self defense, are just not qualified to teach this. I could see where that might be the case, is that the general opinion?

[Ahsen]

join army noooooooooooooooow

[Tant01]

ha ha ^_^ I don't have a gun, nor am I planning on getting one. ....

..... Mike Brewer seems to be of the opinion that martial art places, even those that focus on self defense, are just not qualified to teach this. I could see where that might be the case, is that the general opinion?

Short of wearing personal body armor and a ballistic helmet I'd say most gun defense is very dangerous. There is always a (slim) chance the armed attacker has no clue about his own weapon and some armed robery type felons might lack intent to actually use the weapon but you can't count on it. Learning to disarm a gun is easy, ACTUALLY disarming will be a HIGH ADRENALIN experience...

You might not even remember doing it after the fact...

There are only a handful of self defense type places in the country with real world experience and specialized training...

My e-buddy Mr. Q comes to mind (Peyton Quinn) He's a RBSD instructor there in Mike's part of the country (Colorado) see RMCAT...

[darrianation]

Learning the fundamentals is important if you wish to peruse firearms training. But seek out reputable instructors. Remember your local NRA class is not a gunfighing class but can teach you the basics of shooting. If you want defensive firearms training look for gunfighting instructors and not shooting instructors there is a difference. But before doing any gunfighting classes make sure you know your fundamentals.

[Little Apple]

OK, so that being said, do you guys feel that the little disarming tricks that lots of martial art places teach are appropriate as they are? Do you think they do the job of inserting the concept of dealing with a gun, without overstepping the line into "this is too dangerous and you are not qualified"?

[darrianation]

OK, so that being said, do you guys feel that the little disarming tricks that lots of martial art places teach are appropriate as they are? Do you think they do the job of inserting the concept of dealing with a gun, without overstepping the line into "this is too dangerous and you are not qualified"?

My .02 on disarms.

Most disarms I see in most systems are laughable and will likely get the user killed. That said there are still some good ones that are simple, safe, and effective out there.

I think the range from the threat will dictate the actions taken (tactics) in this case. Believe me the best gunfighters in the world cannot out draw a firearm already deployed and pointing at them a problem further complicated by drawing their weapon from concealment.

At the closer ranges say 0-8 feet the fight is not a gun fight it is a combatives fight. Closing the distance and going for the disarm although not perfect actually produces higher percentage results than attempting to draw against the badguy who already has his gun pointed at your face.

At further distances away (beyond 10 feet) exploding off the X to the sharper angles of the 11 or 1 o’clock preferably to his backhand while drawing and shooting while continuing to move offers better results. In force training the goodguy can usually get 2 or 3 hits on the badguy before taking a hit and we cannot discount what real ballistic effects these hits will have on the badguy.

Using an elliptical movement pattern stepping off to the 11:00 then back to the 1:00 to close for the disarm can usually be done with the goodguy taking zero hits within 6-7 feet or a side step (off muzzle) and grab if the firearm is close enough.

Without getting into the actual disarms themselves (although fairly simple they are hard to explain without visuals) suffice it to say you can either do the disarm or control the weapon/arm until you can get your own weapon into the fight.

Any fight especially one involving weapons is inherently dangerous I don’t think the risk of attempting a disarm is anymore dangerous than complying or going for weapons access at the closer ranges without creating the opportunity to safely access your own weapons first.

If you are caught unarmed I don’t see you have much of a choice.

[darrianation]

Sure-

Once you’ve stepped to the 11:00 you are off muzzle and the opponent’s orientation to you is at the 1:00.

You really want to move to his back hand if at all possible so if he was a lefty (gun in his left hand) the movement pattern would be to the 1:00 then back to the 11:00. Think Kali (Pekiti-Tirsia) foot work. Often moving out of the false lead is quicker and faster.

Why move to the backhand side? Because it takes longer for him to track to his backhand side. If he doesn’t expect you to move (and he won’t) it is like you’re there one second and vanished the next and by the time he figures out what has happened you are on him. This even works when he knows what you are going to do, but he won’t know and it works very well. Almost all first shots miss if he gets one off at all.

Some folks can cover more ground than others but about 6-8 feet away from the gunman is usually about the furthest for most folks after that distance you have to apply different tactics, though I have successfully accomplished disarms without being shot out to 12 feet while I’ve seen others do it repeatedly out to 14 feet, it depends on your body type and level of athleticism.. But even older rounder folks with little athleticism can do it at 7 feet. Most civilian gunfights happen within 7 feet.

This is all premised on the badguy’s gun already being out and pointed at you and your gun is still holstered in its normal concealed carry position.

[darrianation]

Mike-Gotcha. I wasn't thinking in terms of the opponent's new position, but rather I was keeping him at 12 o'clock throughout. That makes sense now.

That's correct, it looks like this