MT: What do you think of men and women sparring?

[Knuckles&Knees]

Ghost,

I take caution speaking on the British Royal Marines because from what I have been told all British Royal Marines must become commando qualified (which requires either a scuba course or a HALO course or both). Jumping out a plane takes some degree of nerves.

That said, I reckon the Royal Marines are like U.S. Marines along the factor line of: You're on the government's time and money.

The government is not going to spend it's time - which equals money - slowly nurturing anyone along in a military boot camp.

But a person being mentored or instructed over months or years can grow. People can change (for better or worse) and people can grow. That process might take several years though or for some it might take a month or two.

[Little Apple]

I'll agree with Michael here. It takes work for sure, and you may not have the resources to do it with everyone, but even the most timid can be taught to fight. It takes a while, and they may not be as good as your other fighters, but it can be done.

As a throw back to the original topic though: I still think you should temper your student's partners on basis of skill, not gender. Make sure they aren't a perpetual rag doll? Of course. But taking a little beating from a more experienced man, vs a more experienced woman shouldn't be a huge issue. Either way you can only hope it's an opportunity to wake them up and get them learning. And either way they were fairly beaten by someone who had more skill.

[Anon coward]

I find this interesting; I was once told that sparring is a science, which can be taught. I have to say this teaching has not been very forthcoming by my teachers, and as an outcome I have faced several sparring situations with guys (I am a girl by the way!) who have left me scared, hurt and trying everything to get out of this in my training. It has taken my own self belief to get me over this as - I refuse to let guys beat me up! However I have now trained with a few different instructors and it seems that the general mentally is that if you are in to train an art then you get on with it, get hurt and suck it up! - this I don’t agree with, I strongly believe, especially with sparring that all levels should be grouped together UNTIL they feel confident to move on.

Sparring is not just a case of putting on some gloves, sin pads and going for it, you need to learn how to move, how to get the hell out of the way, what techniques work for you and ones which don’t, and more importantly you need to learn how to read people, then you move up and this experience will make you grow as a sparring partner as well as your own belief in yourself.

I do think men and women should spar, but as long as it’s in a controlled environment, where (as much as possible) egos are not involved. Students should learn that this is a learning and teaching environment, its not a case of how can beat the living cr*p out of people, I say if you spar with people like that then you either need to make your teacher aware and ask them to step in or if they are any good they will have already clocked this idiot and take them on in a sparring situation and show them that it ain’t so nice to be on the receiving end!

I have a feeling I may have gone off track here.. sorry :-)

[Little Apple]

conversations always go off track, no worries.

[treelizard]

I thought it was interesting that the big potential problem in this article is if a man spars with a woman and gets beat. What about women sparring with men? And more than likely, the majority of the (very few) women in combat sports will have to spar with men because they won't have a choice and will not be able to beat most (if any) of them. Not to mention the fact that in many martial arts the gender politics are pretty insane and women have to be careful not to speak, giggle or even ask any questions unrelated to training. Not to mention the fact that you have to come in early and stay late, set up and take down equipment and sweep or clean the matts for months to be taken seriously anywhere, oh and to show up at every single class. If you build any kind of rapport, if you miss a couple weeks or a month then don't be surprised if there's tons of new people there who you have to prove yourself to again. Not to mention being babied by instructors who only want you to spar against certain people... I have a friend who was telling me about this in her gym... Her coach will let her spar only against like three guys there because he thinks she can't handle it, and yet he'll let totally newbie guys spar against anyone they want even though she's much better conditioned and has much more experience than some of the new guys (some of who are either really overweight or just have no training at all). Why does she get babied/protected when they don't? What she needs is matt time.

And I have very little sympathy for men that get injured by women because their ego won't allow them to tap out. I hope they don't have any sympathy for me because I've not tapped out when I should have in the past because I was trying to be all tough and not look too girly.

And I didn't even begin to mention all the weirdness with guys, like the ones who are...um, why is this guy watching me while I'm doing assisted pullups? And does he really want to spot me or does he just want his hands on my side? Or, it's interesting how this guy keeps accidentally touching me during this stick drill, HMMMM.

There's a lot of bullshit to put up with and that's why I think women who train with mostly men or all men must REALLY want to be there to put up with it.

Anyway, just wanted to show the other side. Also there's an awesome article by Liz Posener: http://www.grapplearts.com/Girl's-Guide-to-Grappling.html

[Anon coward]

You know that is really interesting, I had never thought of that. I have to say then that I have been really lucky; the guys I train with do just throw me in the deep end and make me face it. My instructors are good at round robins in sparring and this allows me to spar with all different guys, different abilities and different strength levels. I am not sure I would have had the patience to go through what your mate has been through without telling someone to s*d off! and I respect her for not doing so. I do get fed up that this is viewed as a male art and that woman do have to go that bit more to prove our ability, skill and right to train. Having trained with several instructors over the last few years, I know what you mean about having to prove yourself, it’s exhausting and degrading.

As an example: I have recently been accepted as an instructor in JKD, but you know what the pain, frustration and stress the top instructor put me through to get this was unbelievable. I even had other instructors telling me that he was making me really work to get this more than any other bloke has had to do and that really p*ssed me off! I was determined to see it through, but it damaged my health, mentally and physically to get there and although I am on the road to teach I am now so fed up with his “ego” attached to this. However the one reason I wanted to teach was to teach women and allow them to train in safety, build experience and develop skills without fear of male domination. Now don’t get me wrong I strongly believe that every woman needs to fight against men and regularly, however (esp. from woman I have talked too) they want to learn the skills and feel secure with them before trying these out on a guy. Namely b/c they are scared of what we are talking about, fear of having to prove themselves, fear of feeling like a fool. It may be viewed as a sexist thing to do, but the truth is I train in a mixed group and have trained in the past with a woman instructor and the training with her I have learnt more, there was more respect and openness to ask questions, have fun and enjoy the training, which at the end of day, for me, is what it is all about

It’s a real shame that women have to face this, I do not stand for being treated any differently in my professional life because I am a woman and I don’t expect to be in any training I undertake. Everyone has there strengths and weakness, men and women alike, there should none of this “come in early and stay late, set up and take down equipment and sweep or clean the matts for months to be taken seriously” b*llocks happening anywhere and it really annoys me that it does, talk about going back in time!

And treelizard, I agree about the tapping out part as well mate, done the same, and all I got was a lot of sarcastic comments!

[GranFire]

I see where I lead a very sheltered life...

[Anon coward]

treelizard, had time today to read that article link. Some really good stuff on there, a great deal I agree with esp. the section about Why women should Grapple - some good points of views - thanks.

[treelizard]

No problem... and I try not to complain about it too much, I just figure I love the style too much to NOT go... I'm sure I could find a style with tons of women and where I'd get taken seriously, but I'd rather do MMA and FMA and MT which are so male-dominated. I figure either I put up with it or I don't go. I am spending way less time trying to prove myself, though. I don't go as often as I could but I do feel like I have to change the way I talk/act/etc. when I train, even though everyone's pretty cool as far as I can tell.

[FitnessRubber]

I disagree...gender roles are bullshit...if the men are that easily discouraged, they aren't meant to fight...

absolutely agreed.

[Anon coward]

Treelizard - I agree, the guys I train with are really lovely (and my top instructor is not all bad! ) and I had met some really idiots! Its good to be able to let of stream about stuff, because I train with all guys trying to talk to them about some stuff is a nightmare so it’s good to be able to talk to other women who get where you are coming from! I am trying to figure out my training at the moment, I really went for it for about 2 years, but soon realised that I was losing a lot of friends in the progress, I also appreciate that I may have appeared more egotistical than I actually was (never helps), so now I am a lot more chilled about it and the truth is by doing that I have found that I am taken more seriously, learning more and enjoying it a whole load more! Still it’s always fun to have a good old moan

[treelizard]

Treelizard - I agree, the guys I train with are really lovely (and my top instructor is not all bad! ) and I had met some really idiots! Its good to be able to let of stream about stuff, because I train with all guys trying to talk to them about some stuff is a nightmare so it’s good to be able to talk to other women who get where you are coming from! I am trying to figure out my training at the moment, I really went for it for about 2 years, but soon realised that I was losing a lot of friends in the progress, I also appreciate that I may have appeared more egotistical than I actually was (never helps), so now I am a lot more chilled about it and the truth is by doing that I have found that I am taken more seriously, learning more and enjoying it a whole load more! Still it’s always fun to have a good old moan

The thing that pisses me off is when people say or imply that someone only has rank or whatnot because they're women, as if it's not an extra battle every step of the way. Just today someone told me that this instructor I get along well with (who other people have problems with) was just "nice to me because I'm "young and female"--as if I haven't put blood sweat and tears into it, day in and day out. Like, it couldn't POSSIBLY have anything to do with my ability or attitude or anything like that...and other people NOT hitting it off with him couldn't possibly have anything to do with their ego or attitude... Grrr. Happens to me at work, too.



No, I'm over it, really!

[Anon coward]

Mate, I am really sorry to hear that, and you have every right to be really fed up. I did get told once that male instructors would be nice to me because I am woman, therefore an asset to their class,(not b/c of my ability BUT b/c I was a woman) a kind of gold sticker as it where. I was not impressed I have to say. I am sorry that this situation has happened, and there is no reason why you should feel like you need to “get over it”. I would hope that this situation is not true and the person who told you that was more jealous of the relationship, your ability and lack of ego, you tend to find people are always willing to put someone down when they are jealous either in a work situation or training. It is always hard not to believe what others say and to do that you need a thicker skin than I would ever want to have in my life.

I think for me, at this point in time, is the right to have a point of view around men in MA, I always get the impression that if I air a view and they don’t agree it’s a black mark against me, so I usually keep quiet (it took a lot for me to start posting on this site), I believe that everyone should train with different levels and allow these different levels to discuss as well, training is not just a physical exercise it should also be a mental one. I get tired of hearing that “stupid questions” should not be asked, what exactly is a “stupid question”!?! It is only stupid to the person who knows the answer not the person asking, surely questioning and talking is as important in any MA as the physical side of the art? Questioning within a class time is not always appropriate but I strongly believe it should be encouraged within students and that they should not necessarily take everything at a face value but learn to explore its possibilities, how else have MA’s grown through the years?

[treelizard]

And it's also a huge insult to an instructor to say that he only trains women or only gets along with women... patently untrue in this case! Much more likely are people who refuse to train women or will give women the runaround but if you're say a cop or something they'll train you right away. But a really good instructor will adapt their approach, how hard they push you, when they choose not to push you, etc. based on the individual, their attitude skills and experience, what they are ready for (or almost ready for), what they can handle...

Anyway, as far as questions I ask them if they come up but I've found for me personally if I try to visualize, etc. what any instructor says it just messes me up. So I try to focus and listen and then do the drill again and somehow it seeps in by osmosis somehow, whereas if I try to remember and follow exact directions it just screws me up. It's hard to explain.

[Guest]

a really good instructor will adapt their approach, how hard they push you, when they choose not to push you, etc. based on the individual, their attitude skills and experience, what they are ready for (or almost ready for), what they can handle...

...which has nothing to do with whether a student is male or female. You are absolutely right.

None of my male students, regardless of what I have put them through in order to develop, have ever come to me and said "you're doing this just because I am a man". Interesting.