Can you talk your way out of a rape?

[bbbb]

So, to all women I say:

I believe the more pressing question is NOT whether a woman can "talk her way out of a rape" but rather why does one ask the question in the first place? This is particularly ethically significant since the latter was posted by a male (as far as I can determine). We can ask such a question because our current androcentric paradigm devalues women's physical strength and innate power and instead forces us to only "value" their ability to speak.
Women are socialised to be passive, not aggressive. And so our androcentric paradigm ensures that women will never be taught to FIGHT BACK and, more provocatively, that they will be taught to feel shame. Thus, to ask such a question serves to perpetuate a highly oppressive episteme (system of knowlege).
I call for contestation!

Use attack as your indestructible spiritual strength. (..for Attack is but the foundation of thought...)

Excellent thread!

We are all very powerful people...but you need to be trained /conditioned or atleast encouraged to realise such thing's....

.. .............

[bbbb]

..as opposed to...

Use attack as your indestructible spiritual strength. (..for Attack is but the foundation of thought...)

Excellent thread!

We are all very powerful people...but you need to be trained /conditioned or atleast encouraged to realise such thing's....

.. .............

...the general brainwashing that can be found in the day to day drivel of it all.

[Eyegouge]

All I have to say is, if your fat and ugly....you don't have to worry about being raped.

[treelizard]

All I have to say is, if your fat and ugly....you don't have to worry about being raped.

That's one hell of a statistic.

[Ahsen]

what happen if you like ugly fat girls ?

[BoarSpear]

Talking you way out of rape is easy...show the scumbag whats left of his buddy,then show him your shiney gun/knife ask if he wants to join his dead friend...

[Danny Flucke]

I can't speak for the rest of the country -

But the statistics here in Orange County point to 38% of investigated rapes being the result of an escalation crime.

Example: A man tries to take her purse - She struggles and his "chase-instinct" kicks in - Resulting in his desire/need to dominate his intended victim.

A large percentage of our clients need a few minutes to compose themselves when we hit the role-play scenario that caused them to find us in the first place.

Even though we try to prepare them for the situtation - By telling them they are going to get excited and experience the adrenalin dump, etc... - The same feelings of panic and fear surface.

After investing our time together in the role-play - It is very rewarding to see them "graduate" into earning their self confidence back - Knowing they will handle themselves properly next time...

Thanks, Danny

[treelizard]

hi Danny,
Can you post the actual stats and where you got them from?
Yael

[Danny Flucke]

Glad to help -

YTD for 2005 for Orange County California -

Rapes: 901
Violent Attacks: 10,126
Missing Pre-Teen Children: 165*

*Does not include parental abductions

( Important note: California defines the difference between "rape" and "violent attack" in two parts. Sexual contact and sexual intent. Gender plays zero role in determination. )

Other report data requested from CA US Attorneys Office:

Rapes occuring as a result of an escalation: 342

Of the 342 escalation rapes:
277 began as assualts ( 81 % )
Most common rape classification of escalation rapes: Date rape
Largest age group of escalation rapes: 20-25

This is the link to the California US Attorneys Office -

http://caag.state.ca.us/ag/index.htm

Scroll down and click on: Criminal Justice Statistics Center

Then inside the blue box click on: Special Requests

Now you can request any crime info you would like.

The reports we are currently waiting for breakdown two specific issues of women's safety:

1) Number of restraining orders violated in 2001/2/3/4/5 - Further broken down by gender. ( # Male violaters / # Female violaters )

2) Additonal crimes commited (if any) while the restraining orders were violated.

These reports will help shape our clients defense training - By allowing us to provide data as to the most common attacks which occur during a restraining order violation.

Thanks, Danny

[treelizard]

I don't know if you realize this, but your original post implied that the crime "escalated" because the woman fought back. Basically that the perp would have been happy just taking her purse, but because she struggled, she caused his "chase instinct" to kick in and that's why she was raped. Is this what you meant to imply? It's a bit unclear.

Also the statistics confused me-since the "escalation rapes" were most commonly date rapes, what crime do you think they escalated FROM?

[Danny Flucke]

I don't know if you realize this, but your original post implied that the crime "escalated" because the woman fought back. Basically that the perp would have been happy just taking her purse, but because she struggled, she caused his "chase instinct" to kick in and that's why she was raped. Is this what you meant to imply? It's a bit unclear.

Also the statistics confused me-since the "escalation rapes" were most commonly date rapes, what crime do you think they escalated FROM?

You are correct.

Nobody should EVER fight back during a robbery - Male or female - Unless they recognize certain warning signs - And/or know what tactics to use.

Victims as a rule are usually at a huge disadvantage - Both mentally and physically.

Of course there are exceptions to this rule - But most predators are looking for the easiest victims.

Why give his "chase instinct" a chance to start ?

Either give him the purse - Or end the confrontation now.

Assault is the most common "piggy-back" charge - Although it is not uncommon for unlawful restraint, unlawful entry, breaking and entering, and trespassing to be included.

Go back and review the data posted:

"277 began as assaults ( 81 % )"

We did not specifically request the percentage for date rapes which escalated from assault - As the data more than satisfied our objective of determining what percentage of rapes did not start as a rape.

In the report, date rape was listed as the most common of all escalation rapes.

A large percentage ( Over 1/3 ) of rapes do not start out as rapes - Which gives trained females a greater chance to detect, avoid, defuse, or end a confrontation.

If you disagree - Explain why and back it up with data...

Thanks, Danny

[treelizard]

Your statistics don't prove at all that the intent of the perp wasn't to rape the woman in the first place. Basically, they do not prove that it was her struggling that "escalated" it.

If most predators are looking for easy victims, then why would the woman struggling cause it to escalate?

I will have to pull up the statistics again, but I spent a long time looking at the Department of Justice statistics for 2003 on violent crimes, and while there were a SMALL amount of people who resisted a crime with a weapon that caused the crime to escalate, this was almost always for crimes such as burglary and assault, and almost never the cause for sexual assault.

I took some women's self-defense classes, which weren't even very good, and yet they had a lot of documented success stories--of women using ONE to two techniques and getting away unscathed. In their situation, things would have escalated had they not gotten away by using self-defense.

I absolutely agree that people who want to fight should get trained in it. What I don't agree with is that fighting back will necessarily cause things to escalate, or will make it worse. This theory is why a lot of women don't train at all. If an attacker is looking for an easy victim, fighting back or even just yelling loudly could make one not seem to fit that category quite so easily.

And one more thing, fighting back won't make it worse if you get away.

If you look at these stats right here: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/vbi.pdf
they will indicate that over half of the women who used self-defense against their attacker believed that it helped, while 25% feel it was made worse.

Some more statistics:

"Studies show that women whose response to an assault is to kick, hit, scream, scratch or run away are half as likely to be raped as those who do not - and are not injured more often. Conversely, begging, pleading and reasoning are related to a greater severity of sexual abuse."

Brink, S., 1993. The Case for Fighting off a Rapist. U.S. News and World Report, December, 74-75.

Ullman, S.E. & Knight, R.A., 1992. Fighting Back: Women's Resistance to Rape. Journal of Interpersonal Violence 7 (1) , 31-42.

And I'm not sure where this state came from, but it's from the YMCA web page:

Myth: Fighting back increases your chances of injury or death.
Reality: Studies show that about 80% of the time if a woman responds assertively, yelling or fighting or both, she will successfully escape. The longer she waits to respond, the greater her chances of being raped.
====

In any case, it is obviously the woman's choice whether or not to fight back. I would hope, however, that you would not tell your students who were raped that it was their fault because they escalated the situation by fighting back.

[treelizard]

Got it.

"A woman who fights back gains an 86% chance of avoiding the rape and incurs little chance of additional injury. Most injuries occur before the woman starts fighting back. Women are most likely to stop an attack if they act immediately and use multiple strategies, such as yelling, fleeing, negotiating, or fighting."

Kleck and Sayles, "Rape and Resistance," Social Problems 1990, 37:149-62; Bart & O'Brien, Stopping Rape, 1985

[Danny Flucke]

"Your statistics don't prove at all that the intent of the perp wasn't to rape the woman in the first place."

The mere fact the State of California found it nessasary to track escalation proves it is a valid issue. We weren't trying to prove any theories - Just find ways to improve our clients training - By determining risk factors.

"If most predators are looking for easy victims, then why would the woman struggling cause it to escalate?"

Do some research on chase instincts...

"What I don't agree with is that fighting back will necessarily cause things to escalate, or will make it worse."

You have mistakenly taken an example and made it a rule. I NEVER said that resisting a robbery will result in a rape. I stated it as an example of what could happen - And has been proven to have happened.

Due to the legal ramifications we all face in the training we provide - We made the desicion to not base our information on heresay data.

Data begining "Studies show" is not admissible in court - And we dismiss it - Relying only on specific concrete data.

You can find "studies" to support any argument - No matter how weak or faulty.

Your google search "data" is flawed, vague, and contradicts itself:

"A woman who fights back gains an 86% chance of avoiding the rape and incurs little chance of additional injury."

"Studies show that women whose response to an assault is to kick, hit, scream, scratch or run away are half as likely (IE 50%) to be raped as those who do not - and are not injured more often."

"Studies show that about 80% of the time if a woman responds assertively, yelling or fighting or both, she will successfully escape."

These sound like a lines from a 2:00am infomercial hawking a women's self defense program. Is it 86% - 50% - or 80% ? How are these percentages proven - And what baseline is used to determine what is "fighting back?"

How "little" is the little chance of injury?

"...are not injured more often" - So they are injured the same amount?

"I would hope, however, that you would not tell your students who were raped that it was their fault because they escalated the situation by fighting back."

Your statement is ridiculous and insensitive to the women who suffer through these issues.

Congradulations...

Thanks, Danny

[treelizard]

Obviously statistics from different studies will contradict other. Even state statistics from different years contradict each other.

I agree that it is a POSSIBILITY that struggling MIGHT cause escalation, however I don't think this is always the case (and I don't think you do either, because you're teaching women how to fight back, right?)

Your statement is ridiculous and insensitive to the women who suffer through these issues.

It is a ridiculous statement, but it doesn't sound THAT different to me from saying that women escalate robberies into rapes by fighting back. I was just clarifying.