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Any of you have information or experience about the feasibility of women simply TALKING their way out of a rape?
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can you talk your way out of a rape?
What kind of rape are you talking about? Date rape, mugging rape, acquaintance rape? What kind of situation are you talking about?
janet dtantirojanarat
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Hi, I saw this question while my friend was checking out the posts on this forum, and I wanted to respond using his ID.
Well, first off I'd like to say that it doesn't matter what "kind" of rape it is - rape is rape. And as such, it is an irrational act. It is not possible to rationalise (i.e. talking) with a man who is intent on such an irrational act. Furthermore, 80-90% of victims know their rapists. And so a woman might think that she could convince her friend/colleague/family member that he should not rape her. Well the fact is that a vast majority of rapist do NOT believe themselves to be rapists, or to have raped. I recently heard a story told by a woman who was invited by her male friend from work to have pizza as his 'thank-you' for something she had done. She thought nothing of this and went to his place to have pizza. And then he raped her, but according to him nothing happened. His belief was that because she came over for the pizza that (somehow) that constituted consent!
My point: the fact that a lot of men believe that they did not rape adds to my point that rape is irrational act. Hence, I must insist that there is NO WAY a woman should ever consider 'talking' (which is a rational act) her way out of a rape!
cheers*
annie
p.s. sorry for the long postComment
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can you talk your way out of a rape
Sorry, but I beg to differ with you. When I was in college, I was involved in a situation in which a quite larger guy tried to force himself on me and because I was able to fend him off long enough to remind him of the ramifications of his actions, he eventually gave up. Of course, my physicality was an important part because it bought me time to make threats to expose him to prosecution as well as ruin his reputation with his colleagues and professors. (He was a graduate student and I worked for his academic advisor.) The appeal to his own sense of self preservation is what made him back off. This was before I had trained in any martial arts. If the same situation were to happen to me now, I believe he would be prosecuting me.
You are correct, rape is an irrational act but in the sense that it defies what "normal" people consider "rational". Even though rapists rationalize their criminal behavior with no regard to their victims, they are usually "rational" enough to have concern for themselves. In fact, that is the only thing they have concern for. Women must arm themselves with skills to protect themselves from such predators - whether that is skill in hand to hand combat, use of weapons, use of psychology or awareness of one's surroundings and planning a strategy in advance of a situation. I suggest all of the above.
janet dtantirojanarat
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Rape is always an irrational act, but there's a difference between a guy wearing a trenchcoat, a ski mask and nothing else appearing behind you in a dark alley and a frat boy who's had a little too much and misinterprets the signals you're giving off.
By the way, please don't interpret this statement to mean that I don't have a passionate hatred for college fraternities.
Check this site:
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Can you talk your way out of a rape?
That's precisely my point!
By the way, if he had been a silly little frat boy, the situation would never have occurred. He was a graduate student (Ph.d), at least 100 pounds heavier than me, a good foot taller and around 12 years older. I was around 20 at the time. I later discovered that he had done the same thing to an acquaintance of mine, but was successful.
janet dtantirojanarat
P.S. - I don't have anything against fraternities either. My daughter belongs to the first Women's fraternity in the United States. That's right, fraternity.Last edited by warriorwoman; 03-12-2002, 08:53 PM.Comment
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My 2 bits...
I think it's like any other crime.
Can you talk your way out of being robbed?
Can you talk your way out of being murdered?
Maybe...maybe not. It's the maybe not part that is worrisome. I imagine if you had some sort of psychological "lever" to use on the person, it might be possible. But unless you happen to have the psychological profile of your assailant handy and know that saying "Rosebud" will make him break down, go fetal and start crying, "Why didn't you love me, daddy?" I think it is a big, fat uncertainty.Comment
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can you talk your way out of a rape?
I totally agree with you. This is precisely the reason why women should never leave it to chance that they may be successful in discouraging a rape, or any other type of assault. But it's not enough to merely learn self-defense techniques. Perhaps more so than men, we have to explore our own psychological make-up and determine to what extent are we willing to actually apply those techniques that may indeed cause severe permanent injury or even death. You can't take a cavalier attitude about these things (I'm not saying anyone has here), but I mean if a woman trains in self-defense, she should develop a mindset that if necessary she will use it to the fullest extent according to the situation. That's why I originally said that if it had happened today, my attacker would have been trying to prosecute me.
On the other hand, women should never assume responsibility for not trying to talk the attacker out of it. Very early in the attack the seriousness of the attacker's intent is made clear. Don't waste valuable time attempting to dissuade him! My situation was merely luck. During the entire time I rather physically resisted him, I was talking. Perhaps he got tired and gave up. Perhaps he realized that he was going to have to do something a little more drastic than he was willing to do. Perhaps I touched a nerve with my threats to expose him to his professional peers and superiors. What I'm saying is all I remember about the situation is doing everything and anything I could think of at the time and he's lucky I couldn't think of some of the things I can think of now.
janet dtantirojanarat
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What great posts!
Defendu.com,
Might I ask why you are asking if you can talk your way out of rape?Comment
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Good Posts is Right!
Okay, I have been enjoying this as much as you. The reason I posted it was because I was contacted by a reporter for Cosmopolitan Magazine.
She was doing a story, "How to Talk your Way out of a Rape" and wanted examples of women who had done so. She wanted the sure fire phrases that would work and wanted to do the story on using a verbal strategy ONLY.
I sent a message out to the members of Defend University and the Women's Self-Defense Institute and the OVERWHELMING response was that a verbal strategy alone did not work. In fact, I got back several responses from women who were raped despite trying all sorts of verbal strategies. I thought I had one successful response, but it turned out to be a tongue-in-cheek response from a woman who sarcastically stated that she avoided a rape in a parking lot by letting her 9mm do all the talking.
Ironically, the writer did not want to hear the brutal, sadistic, dehumanizing and utterly terrorizing aspects of what it is like to face a rapist and be completely at his mercy. The story never ran in the magazine.
All of the successful cases of resistance had some element of an implied or actual physical response. One woman actually avoided being orally raped in her office by pretending to comply then stabbing a pencil into the guy's leg.
I was contacted by another instructor named Susan Bartlestone who claimed expertise in verbal deescalation strategies. I invited her to submit an article. Not surprisingly her lead sentence was "SORRY! Wish I could tell you it could be done but it can't be done – at least in the way we would all like."
With the responses I have gathered so far, I submit that you must be prepared to followup your verbal strategy with a physical strategy.
But, I wanted to hear from others who might have a broader scope of experience than I.
Thank you all for your posts.Comment
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by the way, same for running as an option
Along these lines, we also explored the question of simply running away from your attacker.
I contend that this is a perfectly natural and feasible strategy.
Unfortunately, the people that tend to ask the question are the same ones that don't run in their training (I'm being kind here).
I ask them if they run in their training. No. I ask them if they train. No.
Then I ask them how they propose to simply escape and run away from a guy that is pinning them against a wall, desk, car or the floor. Or he is beating in their face. Or holding a knife to their throat.
Or I suggest a little test. They get a 20-yard head start across the parking lot. If I can catch them, they fail.
You NEED to have a physical response strategy.
You can see the full article I wrote following the reporter's inquiry here:
Brad Parker
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Thank you for your research and follow up.
I personally appreciated reading your posts!
Again, thanks!Comment
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Denial...
I would contend that anyone who believes that verbal de-escalation skills alone can prevent a rape (or any other violent crime) is living in a state of denial.
It would be nice if this were so.
But believing that one can talk one's way out of every jam is just as fallacious as believing that punching someone in the nose or kneeing them in the goolies is the best way to sort out every argument.Comment
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I agree Flash
Research by Model Mugging shows that half of all attackers will break off if a woman even indicates she is willing to resist. Just by displaying the will to resist, you've increased your chances by 50%!
However, I'm convinced that you need to have a plan on how to deal with the other half of the attackers who might not be scared off right away. In other words, you should have the will AND the skill.
I'm thinking that the acquaintance or date rapists (like WarriorWoman was describing) would be more susceptible to a strong verbal deterent...something like, "NO! You do NOT want to do this!" "You will RUIN your life if you do this!" "STOP! I will tell [your wife, girlfriend, mother] if you do not stop RIGHT NOW!"
I doubt that this type of verbal strategy would work for the stranger or sadistic rapist who does not really care about you or the consequences of his actions.
I've met with a number of experts who can name a half dozen to a dozen different types of rapist profiles. There's the power rapist, the vindictive rapist, the sadistic rapist, the opportunity rapist, etc., etc. And apparently there is a different verbal strategy for dealing with each one. If you use the wrong one, it can upset him.
Case in point, a woman awakes to find a man in her room with a stocking over his head and a knife. He tells her to be quiet or he will kill her. She thinks she recognizes his voice and wants him to talk more so she can try and I.D. him. She feigns compliance and attempts to converse with him. Trying to calm him, she says something complimentary about him and he flies into a rage, "you think you know me? You think you know me you bitch!" and proceeds to beat her savagely. [Turns out he was a neighbor in her apartment complex -- a married father of two.]
Well, forgive me, I'm just an instructor that eats way too much red meat, but I can't reliably determine which bad guy fits which profile. I would much rather have a physical strategy that can reliably used in almost every situation and, like Flash said, not live in a world of denial, hoping for mercy from someone who could just as easily kill me before, during or after he is penetrating me. Rape is a crime of violence that uses sex as a weapon.
Maybe I am wrong Flash, but that isn't a native Houston accent you have there is it? Perhaps you've located here from across the pond?
Cheers,
BradComment
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You COULD talk your way out ....
Great posts here.
I would suggest that we are overlooking one item in terms ofthe RapistMentality.
To compare Theifs are pragmatic in their crime. They want financial gain with and don't want to get caught.
Murder's (serial psychotics asside) need little time to comitt their crime since their goal too is pragmatic.
Rapists vary GREATLY in their motivations. But ALL are seeking some type of personal gratification, and those that do not intend to eliminate the witness by murder worry about getting caught.
Given the variety of motivations, talking to a Rapist may in fact help you to discover what his motivations are, and those might be used against him. If he becomes convinced that his victem choice will not yield the desired gratification the Rapist may abort the attack to minimize risk.
If the attacker is passive in nature, conversation may allow the victim to amplify his sence of risk, or find an associative guilt trigger that may cause the attacker to disengage.
In any event - if an attacker will engage in conversation, you can learn about them, you may by time to escape, and you may gather information that will help Law Enforcement catch the perpetrator later on.
Train Hard - The World is Dangerous PLace,
Joe
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