Just the Facts

[lorne]

As a man who has volunteered as a crisis counselor, a public speaker, and a member of the training and development staff with a rape crisis center for the past thirteen years, I would like to challenge the men who read this post to accept some responsibility for :
The fact that men perpetrate the majority of violence in our country (and in every other country as well)- violence against children; violence against women; violence against other men.
The fact that as men, we use violence as a tool for gaining and maintaining our power and control. Racism, sexism, and homophobia are are patriarchal mechanisms of power and control. Those men with the most power in our society (straight, white, affluent men) also wield the most control (control of government, the economy, justice system, and all major media sources).
The fact that men give politically correct lip service to safety, justice, freedom, and equality for women;however, we fail to model this in the real world. Our former president is a rapist and our most successful male recording artist encourages violence against women (including his own mother).
The fact that men are responsible for modeling male/female relationships for young males in our society. What we model is contempt for, and violence against women.
The fact that men consciously, intentionally choose to use violence against women, in all its forms (verbal/emotional abuse, stalking, dating violence, sexual harassment, physical battery, sexual assault, and homicide) because we know it gives us power over...and because we know that we will most likely get away with it (the Justice Department documents that over half of rape defendants are released prior to trial, and of those who are actually convicted, only two-thirds receive a prison sentence: Report Title "Sex offenses and Offenders," l997)

I ask,"How many of you reading this are actively involved to stop it? How many of you benefit from it?" How many of you objectify women every day, violate their boundaries, use porn? What message does this send to young men who look up to you.

Instead of calling me a feminist, which I certainly am (someone who takes action to support safety, justice, freedom, and equality for women), I challenge you to tell me what you are doing to create positive change. I challenge you to acknowledge the ways you use (and benefit from) power and control in your professional and private life.


Sincerely,


Lorne Coleman, ESCAPE Self Defense

https://www.geocities.com/escapeselfdefenseandempowerment/

[terry]

The basis of your argument rests on the specious premise that individual responsibility for injustice can be derived from injustices occuring in society as a whole. The principle of this thinking taken to its logical extent would blame uninvolved individuals for all kinds of social injustices ranging from racial inequality to sexism to alchoholism to environmental polution. Poppycock. There is no legal precedent in American or English common law to support such an argument. A basic principle on which our adversary system is built is individual accountability for individual acts.

Originally posted by lorne
Instead of calling me a feminist, which I certainly am (someone who takes action to support safety, justice, freedom, and equality for women), I challenge you to tell me what you are doing to create positive change.

Feminism is defined as the belief in the social, policital and economic equality of opportunity for women. It also connotes movements in politics, arts & letters, social sciences and behavioral sciences that emanated from that same belief. Sir, you come across not as a feminist, but as a sexist who presumes the guilt of men singly and individually as a result of violence and injustice occuring in society. Not only is this position insulting and demeaning to men, it violates the a basic principle of English Common Law called the 'presumption of innocence'. It is opinions like this that are formed when an undisciplined mind intersects with undergraduate sociology and ultra-liberal extremism.

Terry

[RobertG]

Re: Just the Facts

Originally posted by lorne
Our former president is a rapist and our most successful male recording artist encourages violence against women (including his own mother).

Really? And when exactly was President Clinton convicted of rape? Oh right, never. He committed adultery. Period. Not a convictable offense last I checked.

As for your second point, I presume you are talking about Eminem. First off, if we are to take him at his own word, his mom is pretty deserving of the hatred he sends her way. I mean you don't get a son that angry without having committed violence, either physical or psychological, against them. Nevermind that neither he, nor most of his listeners actually takes such language seriously. There has not been, so far as I'm aware, a spike in violence against women that coincides nicely with Eminem's record sales.

The rape issue you bring up is, however, rather pertinent at the moment given all the media attention on the Kobe Bryant case. It has, among other things, brought to light numerous studies showing that 40-50% of rape reports are false accusations. So while I do not condone rape, neither do I condone a society that has gone so far overboard that its easy to convict an innocent man and smear his good name at the emotional whim of a vindictive women. That number is rather staggering I think.

Your assertion that racism, sexism and homophobia are masculine traits is a bit absurd as well. In conservative parts of the country I'm sure you'll find as much racism and homophobia among women as men. Its not just men that are capable of hatred, hate to break it to you.

Also, the notion that men using aggression and violence to attain power--well duh. You're talking about millions of years of selection for violent, aggressive males. That is what we are. Come to terms with the Y chromosome. There is a reason why men are larger than women, why we have much greater muscle mass than women, and why we are much more aggressive than women. We can't just turn that off. Now, I'm not saying that we ought to go out and rape and pilage as we please. A lot of us turn to martial arts and sports to give ourselves an outlet for that aggression. But men are aggressive, period. Its not something that needs to change, because it can't.

And another thing I hate to break to you women use violence against men plenty. You think stalking is a behavior reserved for men? Ummm, no. I'm sure every guy on this board has a story about some girl that stalked them. Women are especially adept at verbal and emotional abuse. Please, they are the masters of this. As far as physical battery, by some accounts the per capita rate of husband battering is actually higher than the rate of wife battering. This isn't exactly hard to understand since society has continually fed this crap to men about feeling guilty about being men. Its not surprising that men are getting beat down by their women since they are men genetically only thanks to people like you. Oh child abuse? Well look at the Eminem example. At least 25% of child abuse is committed by women. Murder? Well lets see....right here in Houston we had the psycho woman who drowned all of her children. We had the wife that ran over her husband with a car. Shall I go on?

The facts is, humans are dangerous animals. Period. This is regardless of gender. Humans have been violent killers for a long, long time. Both men and women. We have made great strides in becoming civilized, domesticated animals. It is, by and large, pretty safe to walk around the average American city. If you do a statistical analysis of crime rates in most cities you'll find your chance of being assualted randomly is pretty low. But among people you know, well, all bets are off. When emotions run high it doesn't much matter if its male or female, both are capable of lashing out violently--and yes, even of raping. So lets drop the NOW propoganda and screw our nuts back on.

[Thai Bri]

"I challenge you to tell me what you are doing to create positive change. I challenge you to acknowledge the ways you use (and benefit from) power and control in your professional and private life."

How about challenging sexist, stereotypical and ultimately harmful nonsense like this? Does that count?

[Great Sage]

Well, lorne...

I'm not actively involved in the Women's Rights Movement, because frankly, I have the right not to be. Furthermore, the fact that I'm a man doesn't automatically make me responsible for every action taken by men. We are all accountable for our own actions.

As noted by others, in today's society, a case can be made for sexism against men as well. It's really not productive that activists, such as yourself, continually bring up past indifferences to stir up trouble. As a speci, we are better served to try to come to terms with our humanity and promote equality.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Actually yes, I'm quite passionate about women's issues, and especially against the way a lot of them are portrayed in media (as well as stereotypes plaguing women of certain ethnic backgrounds as well).

But I'm also just as passionate about destroying some of the harmful stereotypes put on men in our society. Please take a look at the post I wrote here within the "Erica" thread.

Something genuinely needs to be done about the rising perceptions of BOTH men and women in society. However, that being said, men need to be upheld and supported for their positive roles in speaking out against the stereotypes hounding them (sex-crazed, lazy, overly aggressive, etc.) and not simply generalized as all being "bad."
That's a good way to lose support for an important cause.

Anyway, take care. I wish you the best.

Ryu

[RBFC]

I've stated before that if more women took SD training (and their personal safety) more seriously, rape would drop dramatically. While the liberal view of long-term social change and resetting of a gender's behavioral expectations may occur with time, that does nothing to help the young woman who is grabbed in a parking lot tonight!

If more would-be rapists started showing up in ERs across the country with BIC pens shoved into their neck, or broken kneecaps, or avulsed eyeballs, only the most committed rapists would be interested in continuing. Unfortunately, viewpoints such as the above steer the "burden" further away from women, and they remain underaware and undertrained. The "feminist" platform can be equated to state, "No gazelle should have to look around before going to the watering hole. Lions should not be allowed to eat them."

SOCIETY IS WHAT IT IS NOW. WE MUST DEAL WITH REALITY, NOT IDEAL FANTASY. PERHAPS THE WORLD MAY CHANGE IN THE FUTURE, AND AT THAT TIME, WE CAN ALTER OUR TACTICS FOR SELF-PROTECTION.

At this time, persons willingly place themselves in danger through a process of ignorance and/or denial. To frequent areas or establishments where the risk exposure for an individual is high is the act of a fool, especially so when that individual has not performed a thorough assessment of the dangers and taken steps to prepare themselves for that danger!

The majority of rape is committed by persons known to the victim. They continue because they feel that they have a good chance of getting away with it. Most acquaintance rapes are not even reported, so the perpetrators are correct. They most likely WILL get away with it. However, each and every woman has the power to prepare herself against the types of attack she will most likely face.

The fact that the majority of women do not take their personal safety seriously demonstrates the delusion that all the spouting of "male injustice", etc. has disempowered them, rather than the opposite. The same phenomenon can be observed in other issues in society. People would always rather have someone else to blame for their shortcomings, rather than face the hard fact that they simply don't want to take responsibility for their actions/lack of same. It's much easier to blame society, politicians, etc. for the troubles in their lives. It's much harder to get off the couch and actually take pre-emptive measures against various problems.

I AM for equal treatment of the sexes in social matters. I simply understand that the world does not necessarily respect that same viewpoint, so I prefer to assist women in preparing themselves for the present realities they face. A good curriculum is one that is a living and breathing thing, adapting to new information and needs. Right now, more potential rapists need to fear for their well-being when attacking women.

Lee

[terry]

Re: Just the Facts

Originally posted by lorne
Instead of calling me a feminist, which I certainly am (someone who takes action to support safety, justice, freedom, and equality for women), I challenge you to tell me what you are doing to create positive change. I challenge you to acknowledge the ways you use (and benefit from) power and control in your professional and private life.

I reacted previously to this guy's post because it presumes the guilt of the reader. In addition, I find the above referenced statement offensive because of the moral superiority which it assumes on the part of the author. Bow down before Lorne, confess your sins against women and discuss how you are coming with your pennance.

Sheesh, if I want to listen to any 'coffee shop communists' I'll take a drive over to Marin. That place is the capital of nut buckets like this.

Terry

[Thai Bri]

Forgive him. He's only a man so he knows no better.......

Only joking. For once we agree!

[terry]

Heh.

[lorne]

To those who responded...

Thank you for absolutely reinforcing my assertions. Not one of you accepted my challenge! As men, as the power holders in this society, we refuse (as each of you did) to acknowledge and do something to change our use of violence (in all its forms).

As to your claim that "studies show that 40-50% of women's rape reports are false", I will let the Justice Department respond (I know, you were expecting a quote from Ms Magazine!):
LESS THAN 2% OF RAPE REPORTS ARE FALSE REPORTS

As to my moral superiority, I claim none. The fact that I acknowledge male privilege and power and my/our benefit from that system makes me honest, not saintly.

I issue another challenge: Read my article in Self Defense for Women Magazine (published by Black Belt) on stands now (or read it for free on my site). Tell me what you think about the points made.

Your anger and defensiveness only serve to condemn you.


Sincerely,

Lorne Coleman

[Tom Yum]

Originally posted by lorne
To those who responded...

Your anger and defensiveness only serve to condemn you.

Sincerely,

Lorne Coleman

Lorne, I believe you started the thread.

Isn't it true that people make their decisions emotionally and justify them rationally?

Your decision to focus on women's rights and self defense is your cause. Laying down an offensive challenge flavored by this cause is probably not the best strategy for gaining support.

Forgive my misconception, but its allmost as if you want to be seen as the only one who trumpets this cause and no matter how interested or skeptical others are, you quickly dismiss others responses.

Now you finish with a closing statement that is rather smug. I guess if you're opinons and investments in this cause are so fragile, I would imagine others would behave in a smug, self-approving and protective manner too.

Now cut the BS drama and get to the meat of your program. Walk us through the steps involved in working as a rape counselor. And just to pose as the devil's advocate, what do you think of women who are emotional time bombs and use deception and lies to cover their own psychosis?

For example young women who tell their boyfriends that they are pregnant one minute, but not the next minute. Explain to use the mental processes (and medical) of how a young lady can say she is pregnant and then decide 10 minutes that she isn't when the gentleman caller offers to take her and pay for her medical examination.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

As a male "who holds power" I devote most of my time to teaching and training women sound strategies of self-defense, rape prevention. I am actively participating in University groups that condemn violence towards women (M.A.V), and have written and submitted an article about the dangers of "rape culture" in the media to a poster of this very forum who owns and operates an organization dedicated to counseling, teaching, and empowering women who have been victimized.


I challenge you to understand the rift these kinds of words and posts throws between men who honestly wish to understand more of the subtleness of the culture, and understand that the more we "wave our fingers" at men and call them rapists and morons, the less men you'll get to join your cause.

This has nothing to do with the fact that male dominance can be seen a great deal in our society (and other societies as well), and it does not mean men should not take any responsibility for what they are entertained by, refuse to think about, etc.

But, men suffer from their own DAMAGING stereotypes in our culture too. Ousting us like this doesn't help anything.

Plus, from your last post. I think you are simply spamming now.

All the best,
Ryu

[terry]

Thank you for absolutely reinforcing my assertions. Not one of you accepted my challenge! As men, as the power holders in this society, we refuse (as each of you did) to acknowledge and do something to change our use of violence (in all its forms).

Hmmmmm...Let's see if i can encapsulate this logic into the form of a logical syllogism:

Premise 1: Violent and unjust acts occur against women individually and through the institutions of society. (I agree with this premise BTW.)

Premise 2: Men, by virtue of having a greater tendency towards violence, are assumed to be guilty of acts committed in premise 1 (above).

Premise 3: By living within a society in which injustice occurs you become personally and individually responsible for that injustice.

Conclusion: All men are guilty of violence against women, either directly or indirectly by being a member of a violent society.

Actually, a lot of fanatics think along similar lines. BTW, that's essentially what the hijackers of the Achille Lauro said to Leon Klinghoffer.

Your thinking does not contain room for another possibility: that most people, yes, even men, are decent folks, and few among us either condone or conduct the kind of violence for which you so relentlessly condemn us. Those same men find the allegations you make insulting, sexist and demeaning. Nobody likes to be unjustly accused.

If you would have asked a non-leading, non-ideological question, such as, "What kind of professional, volunteer, community work do you do with and/or for women?" you would have gotten an altogether different answer. But I don't think that's what you're interested in.

Terry

[RBFC]

I'm not surprised that nobody "responded" to Lorne's challenge. I don't respond to those challenges that dare me to jump off a cliff, either. There's no point when this "jury of one" has already condemned us.

My challenge: Can anyone tell me how this post will enable a young woman who reads it to defend herself from the attacker tonight?

Perhaps this political posturing can affect societal views of the male/female violence for her granddaughter, but not for her.

Is this a self-defense forum, or a sounding board for whiners?

Oh, yeah. I have trained hundreds and hundreds of women to defend themselves and have a personal interest in how their training has carried over into other aspects of their lives. I have a special program (assisted by a PhD psychologist) for those experiencing PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder) and a violence prevention program for high school girls which we expect to receive a federal grant for.

So, don't come on a public forum all high and mighty, spout off like you're the only one who gives a SH**, and condemn collectively a large group of people who could actually be working toward the same goal from a different angle.

I can't believe that defend.net continues to allow this type of posting, using up bandwidth, while it doesn't allow enough room for me to post (internationally well-received) pictorial sequences of women's SD scenarios!

Depends on what you want here.....

Lee