I ran, and I'm proud of it

[osopardo]

Whatever YOUR circumstances may have been, the subject of discussion involved two young schoolgirls being approached in an isolated area by three persistent males that they did not know, who were either trying intentionally to frighten them, were too stupid to understand that they were frightening them or worse, may have had evil intentions.

To suggest that they should have reasoned things out with these guys (which, by the way, they did try) and that their first priority should have been to preserve the peace "AT ALL COSTS" is just plain stupid and irresponsible on your part.

I recommend that you read the original post a little more carefully and think about how you would feel if this were your daughter.

And I would further recommend that you assess your attitude more critically. If you're going around feeling vindicated because your sister-in-law paid for your medical bill, if you see that as admission of fault on her part, if you still think you had every right to touch her (no matter where you were), someday someone is going to defend themselves against you with a little more vigor than what you've previously experienced and you just might find yourself permanently in a wheelchair or a grave - because there are people out there who can and will.

I hope you take this as constructive criticism, because I personally think it would be tragic if you were to make a mistake like that again and have it turn out worse than before.

I will pray for your enlightenment and remain, as always...

[osopardo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I ran, and I'm proud of it

Originally posted by mrniceguy148


Thanks for the kind words -- DICKHEAD!!!

That's Mr. Dickhead, to you.

Wait a minute, I thot Tom Yum held that particular title(?)

[Tom Yum]

Originally posted by mrniceguy148

Talking your way out is not a bad idea at all.

I don't think you understood what I meant by kamikaze. Its what happens when you know you are allready getting beat down, you know what I mean?

[osopardo]

Originally posted by mrniceguy148
Okay then, what would you have done if you had a lunichick ragging on you in your own home?

I would have left the house. Whether it's a family member or even if it had been a total stranger, an intruder, whatever. If I am the only one in danger and I don't have to stay to protect others, I walk. Don't even take the car keys, just walk. Sometimes people work themselves into an uncontrollable state of rage and you have to put them out or if possible give them space to cool down. One thing you don't do is continue to argue with them or, as you well know, touch them.

However, what do you do when several people that you don't know accost you and grab your wrist and insist that you "come along with them"? What do you do when walking away is not an option?

[mrniceguy148]

Originally posted by osopardo


I would have left the house. Whether it's a family member or even if it had been a total stranger, an intruder, whatever. If I am the only one in danger and I don't have to stay to protect others, I walk. Don't even take the car keys, just walk. Sometimes people work themselves into an uncontrollable state of rage and you have to put them out or if possible give them space to cool down. One thing you don't do is continue to argue with them or, as you well know, touch them.

However, what do you do when several people that you don't know accost you and grab your wrist and insist that you "come along with them"? What do you do when walking away is not an option?

Agreed! Had I been dealing with a guy instead of my sister-in-law than I probably would have left the house exactly as you suggest. However, I never expected my sister-in-law to become violent so the thought of leaving never crossed my mind. It was a error in judgement on my part.

If walking away isn't an option then obviously you have to fight, but I just don't think that this was the case in this instance. The guy definately crossed the line when he grabbed her wrist and she may or may not have been within her rights when she kicked him -- depending upon the laws in her state.

Realistically though, if those guys were serious then they would have tried to grab the girls in a bear hug or a headlock or something more controlling than a wrist grab. If that had actually happened then it's no holds barred! However, nothing like that ever happened and chances are it never would have happened.

That leaves me with just two questions:

1) What would those guys have done to her if she missed with her groin kick (a realistic possibility)? And..........

2) What would have happened if the teacher and the security guard hadn't come to the rescue?

The Answer to both questions is this: Those girls might have needlessly started a real fight that they had no chance of ever winning! The bottom line is that they both should have been outta there long before it had a chance to become physical! Fortunately nobody got hurt!

[Szczepankiewicz]

Nice guy,

Reading your posts you seem reasonable. It's just that one I critiqued that I really didn't like.

However, that Peace at all costs thing is bollocks.

The gender difference alone, given the location and time of day is need for concern. Then you throw in the group size difference, again, another indicator of concern.

THEN you throw in the stupid behavior of the males and you have your third strike.

From what I read Hi didn't react until she was touched. Them actually reaching out and grabbing her is the fourth indication of trouble as they are willing to escalate the situation.

Four, count 'em four signs that things are going bad for you. Hi picked up quick, lashed out, and vacated the area. Most people have to be hit in the face with a shovel before they figure out things are going wrong.

I agree that people shouldn't over-react. However, I think, and I think the cops, DA, and court system would agree in this situation, that she acted well within her justified limits.

Spanky

[osopardo]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
Most people have to be hit in the face with a shovel before they figure out things are going wrong.

That's what happened to him, except it wasn't in the face.
Self defense is NOT about being slow on the uptake. You read the signs and trust your instincts.

Paxton Quigley makes a point about trusting one's instincts, which have been developed in our species over thousands of years of survival, rather than trusting one's sense of political correctness or socialization - if you're a woman waiting alone for an elevator in an isolated parking garage building and when the elevator doors open there's a large man alone in there and your guts tell you "Don't get in." you should listen to your guts instead of thinking "Oh, I'm being silly, there's no need to be afraid".

And if somebody puts a hand on you without your consent, you have every legal right to respond as if you've been attacked.

For the record; If I verbally threaten you with bodily harm, that's assault. If I touch you in any way without your consent, that's battery. Both can be grounds for pressing criminal charges or pleading self defense;

"Why did you break the plaintiff's arm".

"He grabbed me by the wrist."

"Don't you think you over-reacted?"

"His intentions seemed hostile to me and I feared for my welfare."

Case closed.

[osopardo]

Originally posted by mrniceguy148
That leaves me with just two questions:

1) What would those guys have done to her if she missed with her groin kick (a realistic possibility)? And..........

2) What would have happened if the teacher and the security guard hadn't come to the rescue?

So what you're recommending is that in the face of hostile agression one should appease the attacker rather than fight back? Have you ever seen how effective it is to not fight in order to not anger your attacker?

[mrniceguy148]

Hi, Spanky,

I see four trouble signs also, but remember, we're still talking about kids here and their bark was probably worse than their bite.

Think back too when you were growing up? Did you ever find yourself in a situation where a group of assholes had you cornered and were threatining to kick your ass? Anyway, it happened to me on several occasions. Never once did I have to fight my way out of the situation. In fact, in each inastance the worst thing that I could have done would have been to throw the first punch because that probably would have gotten me beaten up. Usuially thist type of thing doesn't go any farther than some name calling and maybe some pushing and shoving and that's about it.

The girls never really tried to walk away from the situation. They should have tried that first. If waljking away became impossible then the next step would have been to fight. Although the wrist grab was a very bad sign, still in my view Highkickinchick started the actual "fight" when it probably would never have happened otherwise and she was damned lucky to have escaped without suffering the consequences.

Anyway, I understand the points that your trying to make because it's all standard thinking among martial artists. However, I find it scary that martial arts protocol could have easily lead to that girl taking an unnecessary beating. Self defense is more about playing the percentages than about trusting your intuition! Think about it..............

[Szczepankiewicz]

Yeah, I've thought about it and Yeah, I've been in similar situations where I didn't want to provoke anyone.

However, I was never a candidate for sexual assault. And no, we are not living in the same time, same place that either of us grew up in.

Peace at all costs it highly improbable crap.

[mrniceguy148]

http://www.diac.com/~dgordon/fight_selfdefense.html

Originally posted by osopardo


That's what happened to him, except it wasn't in the face.
Self defense is NOT about being slow on the uptake. You read the signs and trust your instincts.

Paxton Quigley makes a point about trusting one's instincts, which have been developed in our species over thousands of years of survival, rather than trusting one's sense of political correctness or socialization - if you're a woman waiting alone for an elevator in an isolated parking garage building and when the elevator doors open there's a large man alone in there and your guts tell you "Don't get in." you should listen to your guts instead of thinking "Oh, I'm being silly, there's no need to be afraid".

And if somebody puts a hand on you without your consent, you have every legal right to respond as if you've been attacked.

For the record; If I verbally threaten you with bodily harm, that's assault. If I touch you in any way without your consent, that's battery. Both can be grounds for pressing criminal charges or pleading self defense;

"Why did you break the plaintiff's arm".

"He grabbed me by the wrist."

"Don't you think you over-reacted?"

"His intentions seemed hostile to me and I feared for my welfare."

Case closed.

What you're practically saying is that if someone bumps into me at the mall than I have the right to kick out his kneecap as long as I'm willing to testify in court that I thought he was threstening me so I defended myself. I don't think so.......

I hope you'll take the time to read this article. It might change your mind

http://www.diac.com/~dgordon/fight_selfdefense.html

[mrniceguy148]

Originally posted by osopardo


So what you're recommending is that in the face of hostile agression one should appease the attacker rather than fight back? Have you ever seen how effective it is to not fight in order to not anger your attacker?

I should have said this before but better late than never.

Had highkickinchick kicked the guy in the shins or smacked him across the face when he grabbed her wrist then it would have been okay -- not advisable, but okay. Instead she tried to injure the guy with a groin kick and that's a whole other matter.........

Again, please read this. It backs up everything that I've been telling you............

http://www.diac.com/~dgordon/fight_selfdefense.html

[IPON]

Re: I ran, and I'm proud of it

Originally posted by hikickinchick
this guy came up form behind me and clapped me on the shoulder. Loren and I were both very startled, but relaxed a bit after t seemed like this guy meant no harm.

He started talking to us like we were old friends, and I started getting a bit nervous. I kept my eyes open and started slowly moving backwards towards the school and away form the bleachers, now pretty much out in the open, and my frind followed my lead. I saw two other guys coming out from under the bleachers and come up to us, and I said very firmly, "We have to go now. My mom is probably here to pick us up."

The first guy laughed, and he just said, "No one's here. You're lying. Come with us and have some fun."

We looked around and saw that the three of them had us almost surrounded, and again I said that we had to leave. They started closing in, still telling us to come with them and have some fun, and it became clear that they weren't going to let us go. One of them grabbed my wrist, and I promptly forgot all of the hapkido I had learned and kicked him hard in the groin.

mrniceguy148: PLEASE re-read this quote. This is clearly a case of SD. On 2 occasions she basically stated that this person was making her uncomfortable, she tried to leave. The guys friends circle HK and her friend and then grab her wrist. Do you think it is more appropriate for her wait for her clothes to be ripped off or for her to be injured?


"Think back too when you were growing up? Did you ever find yourself in a situation where a group of assholes had you cornered and were threatening to kick your ass?"

First, It seemed these attackers did not go to the school, may not have been her age (older). When men surround a female and say "come on let's have some fun" how show you react, I think you are trying to trivialize a lot of the sick things that have happen to women. How can you compare you as a male getting picked on by a few guys and that happening to a girl. Maybe if you were in lockdown and the same thing happened you might re-evaluate your concept of what is a pre-emptive strike.

Men/men is a completely different context than men/women from a SD context. The situation with you and your sister-in-law is definitely not a good example, because I do believe she overreacted, BUT that situation suggests there was reason (or history) why she reacted like that.

I checked the site and I agree with what is said for the most part. I do think they are over intellectulatizing the aspect of training vs. de-escalation. The assumption is that you can de-escalate, which is not always possible. Also, the physical skills for SD are much more difficult absorb than concepts of conflict avoidance.

What I agree with is that people should not overreact, but there are too many variables. It is far better to react and run. I actually do not think I am going to jail if I am not there, that’s the other reality. These rapes an mugging do not happen in crowds usually few is any people are around (and if there are they don’t care). And that’s the point, the police just don’t show up it takes time and time is your enemy just like the attackers so you do what you have to do and get the eff out!!! Who is sticking around to fill out for a police report.

[mrniceguy148]

Hi Ipon,

You said:

This is clearly a case of SD. On 2 occasions she basically stated that this person was making her uncomfortable, she tried to leave. The guys friends circle HK and her friend and then grab her wrist. Do you think it is more appropriate for her wait for her clothes to be ripped off or for her to be injured?

--Who knows weather or not her clothes would have been ripped off or if she would have been injured? All that I'm saying is by trying to injure that guy she increased the chances of something bad happening! If she missed with the groin kick then what? Did she even have a back-up stratagy? Well, she had better have because chances are she would have had three bad boys trying to beat her to a pulp. I'm sorry, I can't condone the timing of her actions even if they were justified and even if it worked for her -- this time. If she had gotten beaten up at that point it would have been her own damned fault because she was the one who made it physical. However, has the situation gone any further than a few words and a wrist grab then I would have to agree with you.

You said:

First, It seemed these attackers did not go to the school, may not have been her age (older). When men surround a female and say "come on let's have some fun" how show you react, I think you are trying to trivialize a lot of the sick things that have happen to women. How can you compare you as a male getting picked on by a few guys and that happening to a girl. Maybe if you were in lockdown and the same thing happened you might re-evaluate your concept of what is a pre-emptive strike.

--Not so! According to Highkickinchich two of the guys went to her school and she had them both suspended. Which makes me wonder if that guy who she kicked might be out there looking for her because of what she did to him. I know of the son of a former co-worker of mine (a high school football player) who searched for a year before he caught up with the guy who broke his nose in a fight during a basketball game. When he found the guy he beat him to a pulp. You never know after you've hit someone.

I'm not trying to trivialize a lot of the sick things that have happened to women. All that I'm trying to do is find the best way to survive a terrible situation. And for the record, a gang of guys could just as easily break my legs and fracture my scull as they could a women. The only difference is the rape factor, but on the other hand statistically more men are attacked than women (outside the home at least) and those attacks are always intended to kill or injure. A gang attack is equally horrable regardless of gender.

The situation in lockdown is totally different than in the real world so therefore lockdown has it's own set of rules perfectly suited to fit it's own unique set of circumstances. For that reason I don't make my safety decisions based on what's going on in lockdown.

You said:

The situation with you and your sister-in-law is definitely not a good example, because I do believe she overreacted, BUT that situation suggests there was reason (or history) why she reacted like that.

--I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between hikickinchick's situation and the way that I was attacked by my sister-in-law. The only simmiliarity is that she kicked a guy in the groin when I don't think that she shouldn't have and my sister-in-law kneed me in the groin when I'm sure that she shouldn't have. As much as anything else, this thread brought back some painful memories. I've been following this forum for over a year and a half and I won't post unless I have some strong feelings about a particular topic, and this one takes the cake.

My sister-in-law does have a history and that history has nothing to do with me! When she was younger she hung around with a very bad crowd and she's had some rotten boyfriends also. My wife and I are positive that she's been raped on several occasions. Whatever may have happened to her, at some point she coped a really bad attitude towards men in general. She's pushing fourty now and in that time she's been married for a grand total of two weeks! The guy she married started beating the crap out of her from day one! The divorce papers where on her lawyers desk before they even go back from their honeymoon! Anyway, I'm sure you get the picture.

So as a result of all of this anger my sister-in-law gave to me what she wishes she could have given to all of those scum-bags who did her wrong in the passed. In her dealings with men, violence is all she's ever known -- from her father right on down the line. I feel sorry for her because she can't love. It's sad when you stop to think about it.........

You said:

What I agree with is that people should not overreact, but there are too many variables. It is far better to react and run. I actually do not think I am going to jail if I am not there, that’s the other reality. These rapes an mugging do not happen in crowds usually few is any people are around (and if there are they don’t care). And that’s the point, the police just don’t show up it takes time and time is your enemy just like the attackers so you do what you have to do and get the eff out!!! Who is sticking around to fill out for a police report.

--I disagree! Most violence, including rape, happens among people who know eachother. I believe that number is over 80%. And if you ever do get into a fight with a stranger then it will probably happen in a public place where drinks are being served such as at bar or at a baseball game, etc.,...so chances are their will be witnesses, and chances are their will be security and chances are you will be held accountable for your actions. That's just the way it is...........

[Ahsen]

...And get yourself abducted by a powerful and organised gang

Whose motives could be anything........