I ran, and I'm proud of it

[Szczepankiewicz]

Nice Guy:

Let's Recap:

when this guy came up form behind me and clapped me on the shoulder.

He started talking to us like we were old friends

"No one's here. You're lying. Come with us and have some fun."

the three of them had us almost surrounded

again I said that we had to leave.

One of them grabbed my wrist

kicked him hard in the groin

my friend and I took off through the opening that he had made, yelling bloody murder.

the three guys took off,

there was my friend to worry about, who hadn't any clue as to what to do.

***

I'm not sure I can convince you to change your position on this and I'm not going to try any more past this post. She didn't shoot, stab, or otherwise cause serious damage. The guys approached, engaged, surrounded and then initiated physical contact for the second time.

HKC reacted, then proceeded to escape and seek authority to help.

I cannot speak for Mrs. V, nor would I try as I value my life , HOWEVER, I believe that the thought process and actions taken by HKC are very much in line with the spirit of the article you posted for us to look at.

Again, I restate, 'Peace at all costs' is not something I believe in nor will I support such rubbish here, there, or anywhere.

Spanky out.

[osopardo]

[i]Ha ha ha, very funny.[/B]

Apology accepted.

What's your other question?

[Edited by Spanky]

[Szczepankiewicz]

Ha ha.

That's pretty funny

Now, change it back and stop 'quoting' stuff that people didn't say.

(We need a shaking-the-head-staring-at-the-floor smilie)

It's like I'm playing cards with my brother's children!

[mrniceguy148]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by osopardo
[B]

Originally posted by mrniceguy148


I should have considered that my input, if taken seriously, could put someone at great risk...

Can you all please forgive me?...


--I never said this..........

[osopardo]

ThaiBri made me do it.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Yes, he is a bad, BAD influence...

[mrniceguy148]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
Nice Guy

I'm not sure I can convince you to change your position on this and I'm not going to try any more past this post. She didn't shoot, stab, or otherwise cause serious damage. The guys approached, engaged, surrounded and then initiated physical contact for the second time.

HKC reacted, then proceeded to escape and seek authority to help.

I cannot speak for Mrs. V, nor would I try as I value my life , HOWEVER, I believe that the thought process and actions taken by HKC are very much in line with the spirit of the article you posted for us to look at.

Again, I restate, 'Peace at all costs' is not something I believe in nor will I support such rubbish here, there, or anywhere.

Spanky out.

Hi Spanky,

I never said peace at all costs. However, I do advocate preserving the peace as long as possible, particularly when you find yourself out-sized and out-numbered. In this case it was suicidal for HKC to try to injure someone before the guys either became violent or tried to carry her away. It wasn't time for that yet.

I agree, everything that you've said is correct by and of itself However, the incident happened 20 yards from the school building, and not in a back alley. Those girls probably weren't going anywhere unless they wanted to. Their main concern should have been to keep the situation from turning into a fight and throwing the first shot is the worst way to go about avoiding being hit back yourself.

If the location had been different and/or if the guys had been older then my opinion would be different. As it was we're still talking about words and a wrist grab. If HKC had broken the wrist grab by smacking the guy across the face, kicking him in the shins, stomping on his instep, or even giving him a palm strike to the nose than I would be less critical. However, things like groin strikes, eye and throat strikes, kidney strikes and kicks to the knee-cap can cause permanent, sometimes fatal injuries. In this situation I need to see more than a few threats and a wrist grab before I can say, "Go ahead sugar. Forget talking and forgrt trying to walk away. Even though the guy hasn't raised a hand to you yet you should still try to put the guy in the hospital with one shot, and damn the consequences if you miss!"

The bottom line is these girls could have probably walked away from the situation if they really tried, and no, slowly backing away won't get it done but walking at a determined brisk pace usually will. By saying what you're saying your advocating bucking the percentages, and that is usually the fastest way to get yourself killed! I can't look at it any other way..........

Anyway, I'm glad to see that hkc and her friend survived the situation however they had to do it.

[Szczepankiewicz]

I never said peace at all costs

Then WTF is this??????? And no this isn't a bogus quote. It's from your first post on this thread.

Instead, your first priority should have been to preserve the peace at all costs

Aside from that I agree that it could have been handled differently. However what I am saying is that she reacted well within the boundaries of self defense.

I just think you have a weakness for guys getting kneed in the jewels.

The guys took off. Therefore they probably were up to some mischief. If a girl kneed me and I felt there was no provocation I'd stick around and make sure she got in trouble. Kinda like you did with your sister in law.

Your turn.

[osopardo]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
I just think you have a weakness for guys getting kneaded in the jewels.

Not sure I like the sound of that...

[Szczepankiewicz]

What did I done told you about misquoting people.

Especially moderators with big giant egos!?!?

You tempt fate mi novia.

Spanky

[IPON]

[QUOTE=mrniceguy148] "Who knows weather or not her clothes would have been ripped off or if she would have been injured?"

Ok, we certainly do not have to agree but the point is neither one of us knows what could have happened and that’s the point. But She had more reason to suspect something bad especially if she was trying to avoid the situation. Yes, she did have a back-up strategy RUN!! And I definitely do not agree if SHE were beaten by 3 BOYS it would be her fault because she was being harassed and violated. Yes, encircling her and her friend and then grabbing her wrist is more than enough reason to assume you are in danger and need to do something to get out. She made the right assessment and used reasonable force for the situation. It is easy to sit back and speak armchair MAs and SD but I am sorry there are too many realities that you are not dealing with.

What you are doing is victimizing the victim can't you see that. You say she would deserve to be beaten becuase, as a result of being placed in a comprimising position, she defended herself.

"I know of the son of a former co-worker of mine (a high school football player) who searched for a year before he caught up with the guy who broke his nose in a fight during a basketball game. When he found the guy he beat him to a pulp. You never know after you've hit someone."

Correct, that is exactly how crazy people are!! Now with this statement you still believe that HK did not have a reason to feel threatened.

“And for the record, a gang of guys could just as easily break my legs and fracture my scull as they could a women. The only difference is the rape factor, but on the other hand statistically more men are attacked than women (outside the home at least) and those attacks are always intended to kill or injure. A gang attack is equally horrible regardless of gender.”

I agree in the context that any one confronted or attacked by a gang can be in trouble. But I am sorry it is different for women than men. The reason for the attacks is typically different and the end result is different. Men get raped by other men as well but that is certainly the minority of cases. The point of my example of lockdown was for you to understand how vulnerable and helpless a women would feel in that situation. Getting you azz beat is one thing getting violated and beaten are galaxies apart. The only way you or I could understand that is to put yourself in a similar situation. (yes jail is obviously a different circumstance but the example is what is important). OK for get the jail eample, let's say 3 big guys in the village grab you and say “come on handsome lets have a good time” they circle you and grab your wrist are you telling me that you would wait to se what happens. If it escalates maybe you will react but if they are just caressing you its OK??

“I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between hikickinchick's situation and the way that I was attacked by my sister-in-law. The only similarly is that she kicked a guy in the groin when I don't think that she shouldn't have and my sister-in-law kneed me in the groin when I'm sure that she shouldn't have. As much as anything else, this thread brought back some painful memories. I've been following this forum for over a year and a half and I won't post unless I have some strong feelings about a particular topic, and this one takes the cake.”

This is sad and I too know many women in that situation and it is very sad and unfortunate that your sister-in-law had those relationships. But good that she had enough strength to leave. My point to you is that if you know this person has this history even more reason you should not have put your hands on her. It does sound like it was a bad experiences for you @$5,000 I can only imagine. However, I don’t think you should let that personal experience, regardless of who was right or wrong and to what extent, cloud your judgment on all cases

“I disagree! Most violence, including rape, happens among people who know each other. I believe that number is over 80%. And if you ever do get into a fight with a stranger then it will probably happen in a public place where drinks are being served such as at bar or at a baseball game, etc.,...so chances are their will be witnesses, and chances are their will be security and chances are you will be held accountable for your actions. That's just the way it is"


You are missing my point I said nothing of how well the victim know the attacker. Please reread my comment.
Regarding a fight, perhaps but I said rape and mugging in reference to the use of potentially or lethal force. If the fight is quickly stopped, there is not issue. With the example I gave before about the tree guys attacking, yes I would try to get away, but if that is not an option this will be the headlines in the NY daily News and NY1

“Police report 3 unidentified bodies found in the village last night. Police have asked local residents for information so far none has been provided……….on the sports report well it looks like the Knicks and the Giants both lost this weekend.”


Anyway, Mr. Niceguy, No flame but I think you have to look at this in different perspectives

[mrniceguy148]

i Spanky,

Okay, you caught me red handed. I admit that I did say, "Instead, your first priority should have been to preserve the peace at all costs" however, if you remember from yesterday I clarified my meaning by saying, "I do advocate preserving the peace as long as possible, particularly when you find yourself out-sized and out-numbered." Obviously it's hard to preserve the peace after there's no peace left to preserve, and just about every move HKC made and failed to make pushed events closer into that undesirable direction.

You said:

Aside from that I agree that it could have been handled differently. However what I am saying is that she reacted well within the boundaries of self defense.

---When you say that, "she reacted well within the boundaries of self defense" are you referring to the "LEGAL" boundaries of self defense? If so then I can't argue with you because nobody was injured as far as we know and because HKC and her friend managed to escape. No harm, no foul!

On the other hand, if you're talking strategy then it could have been disastrous in several different ways! After all she did allow three goons to “close in” on her and get close enough for one of them to grab her wrist after they’d already said, “Come with us and have some fun.” Big mistake!

You said,

I just think you have a weakness for guys getting kneed in the jewels.

---This looks like some kind of personal attack from what I can tell. You can think whatever you like but from now on can we please confine the topic of conversation to what's actually being discussed in this thread? This is exactly the type of garbage that's been the ruination of many many many message boards across the internet. Let's not let it happen here, okay?

You said:

The guys took off. Therefore they probably were up to some mischief.

---Anytime a guy grabs a women by the wrist after she's already told him to "get lost" you can be sure that the guy is up to some mischief. However, as far as I know "mischief", by and of itself, isn't a felony and it's usually not worth the risk of getting into a fight over.

Then WTF is this??????? And no this isn't a bogus quote. It's from your first post on this thread.



Aside from that I agree that it could have been handled differently. However what I am saying is that she reacted well within the boundaries of self defense.

I just think you have a weakness for guys getting kneed in the jewels.

The guys took off. Therefore they probably were up to some mischief. If a girl kneed me and I felt there was no provocation I'd stick around and make sure she got in trouble. Kinda like you did with your sister in law.

Your turn.

[osopardo]

mi novia.Spanky

Did you just call me your girlfriend? Why Spanky-poo!

Or did you mean "my beeatch"?

[gregimotis]

QUOTE:
--I disagree! Most violence, including rape, happens among people who know eachother. I believe that number is over 80%. And if you ever do get into a fight with a stranger then it will probably happen in a public place where drinks are being served such as at bar or at a baseball game, etc.,...so chances are their will be witnesses, and chances are their will be security and chances are you will be held accountable for your actions. That's just the way it is...........
END QUOTE


148, we aren't discussing a generic situation, we are discussing a specific case and the case is: Two young women were aproached by strange men in a deserted area. The women tried to leave, the men followed the women and suggested the women go with the men to another location to 'have some fun' and then laid hands on one of the women when she continued to move away.

How many times have we read this in a self-defense article: 'If the attacker moves his victim to another location, that victim is unlikely to survive.' That's exactly what Joe Creep suggested he wanted to do.

Here is what Geoff Thompson (http://www.geoffthompson.com/articles/articles.htm) has to say about being touched:
" Men who step away from you and make a lot of threatening noises are posturing - they don’t usually want to fight. Men who close the distance and try to get within touching range usually do want to fight, even if, as they approach, they say they don’t."



If I were in a field and a couple guys started following me around then one of them grabbed me, I'd kick him in the nuts too. Furthermore, if I read in the paper about two men assaulting someone and getting shot dead for it, I'd say to myself 'it's too bad they got shot, but they really should have known better than to be hasseling strangers like that'

This doesn't even get into women's extra circumstances like being 50 pounds lighter and facing rape, not just a beating. I mean seriously 148, at what point do you think a woman should begin defending herself? Obviously not after she's been grabbed, so maybe after shes been clubbed and slung over his shoulder?


AND TO HIKICKINCHICK: Thank you. Thanks to you there is one more creep out there who will think twice before pulling that stuff on someone I know.

[osopardo]

Shouldn't somebody warn eXcessiveForce about this guy's choice of avatar?
I mean, I like 'Foce, respect his opinions, nod my head vigourously as I read his postings, etc. etc. etc.

Of 'course, Spanky is and always will be mi novio.

And to gregimotis; Thank you, ditto!