takedown's !!

[bbbb]

In Kung Fu they teach you not to get on the ground...but, so far, I haven't
been taught how to avoid this...It's up to me to work it out I s'pose...

...except a wing chun teacher(I should go back and see him!) once said to
me that a grappler tried to shoot him in a confined area once(Locker room) and he told the class that ..."He can have one leg...but not both".. and so he gave him one leg and spread the other to maintain ?some control? thererfore allowing him to not go down and be able to apply hand attacks and win...

How does this type of strategy sound...is it "sound" in your opinion?

?Anyone?

It possibly sound's as if the grappler didn't know his art properly- leading to me to reveal my fear of a good grappler

[Andrew Green]

In order to learn to avoid going to the ground you got to learn takedowns, and then train with them.

Giving a grppler a leg is a bad idea. Single leg takedowns are rather common and very effective.

A confined area will make it easier for a grappler to bring you down, once your back is to a wall you got no where to go.

[bbbb]

taa

That's why BJJ is so expensive

I would therefore like to try some- which is the best...that Machado one?

There's one in Perth! I heard they used to "roll" with the Gracie's.

I would still continue w/ the Kung fu, because they say you shouldn't go down and that makes perfect sense...but to know how to avoid this is what I
want, so cheer's maate.

Actually- is this the perfect theoretical combination- or would the Thai
Boxing be a necessity...Classic boxing or...?

[bbbb]

actually...

It's up to me to ask the question, I s'pose!(What am I afraid of ).

But BJJ would give me practical understanding...
It just seems so intimate but- it works very well as long as you aren't fighting more than one.

Or does Brazillian Jui-Jitsu look at multiple opponent situations...

How long does it take to learn to tie some one up in knots?


Hang on- If you give one leg and they try and take you down-then surely
while they have their arm's around you you can poke there eyes out. Unless it's a competition w/ rules...this is why Kung fu doesn't do well in the UFC,yeh!?
Giving the leg is a surprise technique then. Is that what the Wing Chun guy
meant(once again I didn't ask the proper question's- though I will learn from
that)? They(HE) know Bill Gee you know-something I heard Bruce Lee didn't even learn... Once the grappler loses his eyesight..is he still a toughguy!?

[jubaji]

a wing chun teacher(I should go back and see him!) once said to
me that a grappler tried to shoot him in a confined area once(Locker room) and he told the class that ..."He can have one leg...but not both".. and so he gave him one leg and spread the other to maintain ?some control? thererfore allowing him to not go down and be able to apply hand attacks and win...

How does this type of strategy sound...is it "sound" in your opinion?

:

.......................................

No

[Burton]

Originally Posted by bbbb
"a wing chun teacher(I should go back and see him!) once said to
me that a grappler tried to shoot him in a confined area once(Locker room) and he told the class that ..."He can have one leg...but not both".. and so he gave him one leg and spread the other to maintain ?some control? thererfore allowing him to not go down and be able to apply hand attacks and win..."

I am not buying this. Give a wrestler one leg and down you go unless you have practiced defending the single leg. If you want to avoid takedowns, as we all do, you must train against people who are very good at takedowns. Wrestlers, judo players, etc. are very good at takedowns, so get with somebody, learn the takedown, learn the counter, then practice. It is actually a lot of fun, and there are so many techniques and details to enhance your takedown defense. Enjoy!

[shirase]

"Hang on- If you give one leg and they try and take you down-then surely
while they have their arm's around you you can poke there eyes out. Unless it's a competition w/ rules...this is why Kung fu doesn't do well in the UFC,yeh!?"

No way people who are good at takedowns wont give you time to poke out their eyes. And usually they are in a position hard to do anything effective to their eyes.

[Burton]

In JKDU we practice with simulated eye gouges, etc. in the training. The only way you will have time to apply this is if you are good at first defending the takedown. Even then, as Shirase pointed out, the person doing the takedown will often have his head in a position where it is difficult to get to the eyes. Again, practice against those takedowns so that you can rely on leverage and technique rather than pain compliance. Aloha!

[J Rockwell]

"But BJJ would give me practical understanding...
It just seems so intimate but- it works very well as long as you aren't fighting more than one.

Or does Brazillian Jui-Jitsu look at multiple opponent situations...

How long does it take to learn to tie some one up in knots?"


BJJ alone does not provide you with all the tools you need to deal with multiple opponent scenarios. But I think few styles truly do. Fighting and defeating multiple opponents who are seriously determined to hurt you is mostly for the movies. Fighting and ESCAPING from multiple opponents is a much more plausible idea. I think one of the Gracies said this when asked about fighting more than one person: "For mulitple opponents, I have multiple brothers!"

Many people assume that grappling (BJJ in particular) advocates pulling guard and holding on for dear life, mounting someone and staying there, or other nonsense in situations where the environment is harsh for grappling (cement and broken glass are common things mentioned) or there is potential for multiple opponents. Perhaps for some people who have only trained and considered BJJ in a sporting light, that might be the case. But most people who train BJJ and have also trained other methods of fighting - or who have ever given a few moments thought to how they should adapt their tactics to “the street” - will tell you that they will still be in a position to make their art very effective.

Simply using techniques from BJJ and wrestling, I could use these techniques and strategies against single or multiple attackers in the street:

-“upkick” effectively from my back – to the groin, the knees, the jaw, etc.

-Safely get back to my feet while protecting myself from punches and kicks

-Get behind an opponent with armdrags, duckunders, etc.

-Employ standing chokes, both facing my opponent, and getting his back

-Control an opponent with various types of clinches, especially to move him in between other opponents and myself.

-Take an opponent to the ground while still remaining standing or ready to quickly disengage to flee or face other opponents

-Slam an opponent to the ground, potentially injuring him

-Escape from my back when one or potentially more opponents are attempting to keep me there

-Control an opponent and strike him heavily from various top positions that allow me to quickly disengage and flee or engage another opponent if necessary (knee ride, quarter position, side ride, variations of north/south and sidebody)

-Control an opponent with specific pins that don’t allow him to bite or gouge me effectively.

There are probably more, but that’s off the top of my head.

Now this was far from a street scenario, but just for fun, I rolled with two really good blue belts at the same time today at the end of our lunchtime workout. No striking was allowed, and we were just having a good time. But I gave them both all they could handle for about two minutes, nearly getting one with a triangle and the other with an ankle lock. Eventually, their strategy of “you take his upper body, I’ll take his lower body” paid off and they simultaneously tapped me with an armbar and a foot lock. The point is, I was able to hold my own and actually go on the offensive against two fairly skilled grapplers for several minutes - and even though they started pretty much on top of me, I’m pretty sure I could have worked to my feet and escaped in a scramble if that had been my goal. I’m a purple belt, just for reference – I’ve got game, but just imagine that scenario with a black or brown belt.

Striking greatly changes things of course. But the basic skills would be just as crucial in allowing me to survive and attempt to escape.

If kung fu is your thing for striking, go for it. Just make sure you are sparring with progressive resistance. Too many kung fu schools that I have seen do their forms and sets and then just try to spar full out. They beat the crap out of each other, but never improve. Their black belts can all do these amazing routines that look straight of the Matrix – but when they spar, they look almost as awkward as the whites. I know this isn’t all schools, just some of the ones I’ve seen. I believe that’s because they don’t consistently work with progressive resistance, smoothing that middle ground until they can apply what they train in actual combat. I’m a fan of boxing and Muay Thai myself, but it can all be good if it’s trained right.

As an aside: Burton, do you ever try rolling with more than one person at a time? It was hard, of course, but more fun than I expected.

Best,

Jeff

[Burton]

Hey Jeff,
I have tried grapplling against two on a few different occasions, and yes it is very hard. We had a great time, and as you pointed out, one can sometimes last longer that you would imagine. My guys ended up doing standing passes in opposite directions so that if I faced one the other had my back. Good tactic!

[Brennan Chasm]

I don't really expect to win in a multiple opponents situation unless I have a weapon or if the guys are amateurs and just runs at me. Striking or grappling alone won't really make a difference. Personally, I think that striking combined with grappling is your best bet. Hit the first guy really hard somewhere (throat, eyes, groin?) and if you can't hit the second one, I guess do a takedown on him. But that's just me, and it might/might not work. It's just what I would do if in a real self-defense situation.


As for your master's encounter....it depends on the experience of both the fighters. It doesn't matter what art/style you practice, it really comes down to the individual man doing the art/style. Just use what you think is good against a grappler's attack. For me, sprawling is a "sound" strat I'd use. But I do agree with you about standing up, I'm more of a stand guy myself but I'm open to groundfighting if need be.