any christians on the site?

[Garland]

Why is it the Papists always have to whine?? J/K, LOL

As long as you're not a Mormon its all good in the hood....because Mormons are not Christians, lol...

Well...you're all stupid (not because of your religion, per say...but more or less because you're breathing MY air.), but Mormons are the fucking worst. Prostheletizing, preachy bastards...that run the state I live in. Makes me wanna pull some V shit out my ass.

[GQchris]

Hey Garland, did we bash athiests? NO. Are you a Christian? NO.

So PHUCK OFF

[pressureguy]

Hardcore Christian here. I am 30 and got saved at 17 years old.

I used to run a karate class at a church down the road from my house, but stopped due to work.

Also, I am a certified instructor for the Karate For Christ Assoc.

If you are a believer in Jesus, He should be the backbone of EVERYTHING you do.

pressureguy

[Dim Wit Moc]

Hardcore Christian here. I am 30 and got saved at 17 years old.

I used to run a karate class at a church down the road from my house, but stopped due to work.

Also, I am a certified instructor for the Karate For Christ Assoc.

If you are a believer in Jesus, He should be the backbone of EVERYTHING you do.

pressureguy

I really enjoyed and appreciated your testimony. I belong to Koreja Do Christian Martial Arts Association which is also excellent.

[Garland]

Hey Garland, did we bash athiests? NO. Are you a Christian? NO.

So PHUCK OFF

Oh...I wasn't JUST referring to Christians...in fact, what I said could be attributed to everyone except me, regardless of religious (or non-religious) affiliations.

I do especially take issue with GQ, though...what a waste of paper.

[Hikage]

Je suis Chretien...

Probably a non-denominational one though, went to R.C. school from k-6 th grade. Could we please put the denomination v.s. demnomination thing to rest via, the mary worship thing we are asking mary to interceed on our behalf we are not worshiping Mary, by that logic if you ask a friend to pray for you you are doing the same thing again I guess. And quit with the we worship idols thing(someone on tv) because we don't do that either. a statue is merely a symbol that reminds us of god. Do protestants pray to the cross no they pray to jesus and the cross is a symbol of him. This my sect of christianity is the only right one stuff is what make non-christians think we're a bunch a hyopracritcs. It's too bad the Orthadox church the R.C. church and the portestant church couldn't all come back together then this type of foolishness would stop. I'm sorry to sound judgemental but it just buggs me to no end.

You know, the largest reason for atheism today is other Chrisitians. Many of our pulpits are filled with weak men, and women, who don't have the first clue about how to lead. They leave out some of the most important details about Christianity, such as sin, in favor of a more "non-offensive" Gospel. When you remove sin from the Gospel, you remove the necessity of a saviour. When you remove the saviour, you find that Christ died needlessly.

Another aspect that is not taught is a proper Christian Wordview. By this, I mean how do we as Christians view the world around us. What does the Bible say about particuluar issues, and not just the big ones. Where does God fit into our lives? Is he to be compartmentalized (as some churches enable), or present in every decision? How does a Christian worldview fit into how we view our careers and families?

This being said, in accordance with a Christian worldview, we are not taught how to discern that which we are taught. Furthermore, there are certain dogmatic principles which are essential to Christianity and are prevelant throughout the Bible. I admit, I must disagree with the notion that Catholicism and Christianity are one in the same. I have two major points of dissagreement, but I'll lend you my views on the Madonna worship as well.

As far as praying to Mary, I would like to know by which Scripture do you practice this? No where througout any of the Gospels, Acts, or the Epistles do we see this. No where does it say that we can communicate with the deceased, regardless of how pure and holy they were on Earth. We practice Baptism because it is an ordained institution throughout the Old and New Testaments. We continue to marry for the same reasons. We confess (although not to a priest) because the New Testament adamently says to and is backed up in the Old through repentance of sins. I hate to admit it, but to give Mary, or any other Saint any power beyond what power they were given on Earth by God is satanic. Very narrow is the path upon which we walk (very well illustrated in John Bunyan's work, Pilgram's Progress) and it is so easy to think you're following a parallel path. This always leads to disaster.

When Martin Luther seperated from the RC Church, he had two main points (prevelant throughout all his however many tennants). That of Sola Fide and that of Sola Scriptura. Sola Fide is faith alone, meaning that it is by faith alone that salvation is attained. Catholics believe in a merging of Christ's death, with the necessity of relying on works to further along your salvation. They use the following Scripture as a base for this belief, but you'll see that in itself it is defeating:

James 2 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

In the last lines, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. We see that the first step is to believe, and then the works (or deeds) are seen. What is not shown is the power of Christ to tranform a life and make them want to perform these works.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (Whole Chapter)
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Romans 4:2 (Whole Chapter)
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.


The Scripture teaches that Sola Fide, or faith alone is the true way to salvation. The first step in salvation is realizing that you are imperfect, have sinned, and need someone to take you from that life.

Romans 3:23 (Whole Chapter)
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12 (Whole Chapter)
[ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

Romans 6:23 (Whole Chapter)
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in [ Or through] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Furthermore, this is all that we can do for salvation, nothing further, as taught by the New Testament. This is the most common passage referring to this, there are more.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Once again, we see here the grace and salvation come first, then God cultivates in us the desire to do his works. Works are not a necessary element to salvation. One more time, look at the line "so that no one can boast." The one thing that will be absent from heaven will be boasting about how we got there.

No one will stand before God and say "you should let me in because I was a decent guy." That would be boasting.

Isaiah 64:6 (Whole Chapter)
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

As for Sola Scriptura. The RC Church preaches that the Pope is the mouth piece of God and has an equal place in the church as the Scriptures. Christ himself teaches the following:

Matthew 5:18 (Whole Chapter)
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

This applies to the Pope's ability to add to, take away from, and re-define Scripture. In addition, Paul teaches that Scripture itself is sufficient:

2 Timothy 3:16 (Whole Chapter)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Unfortunately, I don't feel that I have explained myself well. My little boy has a fever of 104, and he's my current focus. I wanted to draw attention to the fact that there is a large dogmatic divide between Catholicism and Christianity and to encourage you, if you are Christian, to pursue a Christian worldview and strive to be blameless. There is no excuse for someone who claims Christ to swear on a board such as this or to post sexual pictures. These are easily avoidable contradictions and actually serve to promote atheism. Ghandi said that he liked Christianity's God, but hated the Christians.

-Hikage

PS> I apologize, no time to proofread.

[Dim Wit Moc]

God is the God of the living and not the dead. This is why people talk to their deceased parents by their graveside. If I asked a friend to pray for me, no one would raise a eyebrow. If I speak to my deceased father, no one would complain. The hatreds of the Reformation caused anything that even smacked of Catholicism to be ridiculed and discarded. The Virgin Mary, St. Paul, St Jude, etc. are all alive, just are every other believer who ever lived. You don't have to be declared a saint by any church to be one. You just have to be a believer who is alive in this world or the next.

I'm not even Catholic, but I don't see why you can't talk to any believer and ask for their prayers in life's situations, or just to talk to them. And no, I don't practice seances to conjure someone up.

[Hikage]

God is the God of the living and not the dead. This is why people talk to their deceased parents by their graveside. If I asked a friend to pray for me, no one would raise a eyebrow. If I speak to my deceased father, no one would complain.

True...


Matthew 22:32 (Whole Chapter)
' [Ex 3:6] I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."


Mark 12:27 (Whole Chapter)
" [Matt 22:32; Luke 20:38] He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."


Luke 20:38 (Whole Chapter)
" [Matt 22:32; Mark 12:27] Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for [Rom 14:8] all live to Him."

I overlooked an instance in the Bible, in the Old Testament where Saul looked up and attempted to talk with a deceased prophet. Let's listen in...

1 Samuel 28
Saul and the Witch of Endor
1 In those days the Philistines gathered their forces to fight against Israel. Achish said to David, "You must understand that you and your men will accompany me in the army."

2 David said, "Then you will see for yourself what your servant can do."
Achish replied, "Very well, I will make you my bodyguard for life."

3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all the Israelites and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her."
"There is one in Endor," they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"

10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."

11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."

14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."


In Christian theology, this event is considered sinful. To my knowledge, this is the only instance of someone talking to a non-diety past the grave. I have no problems talking to a grave site, but I don't necessarily hold that they can hear me.

My main issue here is the following... show me someone Biblically who practices speaking with those who have passed on. I understand that they are alive and living with God in heaven. And I do believe that they are in communication with God, in that they are engaged in continual praise. The Bible does not say, ANYWHERE, that they can hear us or pay us any attention. Rather it teaches the opposite. It teaches that in heaven, we will not have the familial ties that we have here and that their focus is on God, and not on us.

Matthew 22:30 (Whole Chapter)
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.


Mark 12:25 (Whole Chapter)
When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

The hatreds of the Reformation caused anything that even smacked of Catholicism to be ridiculed and discarded. The Virgin Mary, St. Paul, St Jude, etc. are all alive, just are every other believer who ever lived. You don't have to be declared a saint by any church to be one. You just have to be a believer who is alive in this world or the next.

I'm not even Catholic, but I don't see why you can't talk to any believer and ask for their prayers in life's situations, or just to talk to them. And no, I don't practice seances to conjure someone up.

I agree with most of what you say here. All those whom you list are still alive and in heaven as well with every believer, who are also Saints. The Bible teaches that the cannonized Saints are not any more righteous than the weakest of believers. Keep in mind, all our best works are but filty rags before God. It is only through the death of Christ can we stand in God's presence and it is His righteousness that God sees in us, not ours. What difference there is in earthly righteousness between myself and the virgin Mary are dwarfed by the righteousness credited to me and the other believers.

MAIN POINT:

All who have "fallen asleep" in the Lord are still alive and well. However, there is no Biblical precedent of praying to them nor does the Bible teach that they are even paying attention to what is happening here.

-Hikage

PS> DWM --- Why are you taking up this stance if you are not Catholic? Where do you stand religiously? If you were called before the judgement seat of God today, and he asked you "Why should I let you in?", what would you say?

[Dim Wit Moc]

Hikage: First of all, I would like to say that I appreciate the fact that your comments were rational and non-inflamatory.

I will enter heaven because I have accepted the Lord Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. I also try to walk with Him each day. I am not "earning" my way to heaven, but seeking to do His will.

I take the stance I do because I will not be placed into any "box". I've attended Baptist Churches, Pentescostal Churches and Non-denominational churches. They all have their nice, tidy, doctrinal limits. I have my limits too. They are found in the Nicene Crede. Beyond that, I keep an open mind, and try hard to break down walls and not build them.

[Hikage]

Hikage: First of all, I would like to say that I appreciate the fact that your comments were rational and non-inflamatory.

I will enter heaven because I have accepted the Lord Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. I also try to walk with Him each day. I am not "earning" my way to heaven, but seeking to do His will.

I take the stance I do because I will not be placed into any "box". I've attended Baptist Churches, Pentescostal Churches and Non-denominational churches. They all have their nice, tidy, doctrinal limits. I have my limits too. They are found in the Nicene Crede. Beyond that, I keep an open mind, and try hard to break down walls and not build them.

Groovy...

[BoarSpear]

You know, the largest reason for atheism today is other Chrisitians.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!! I looked around after growing up in private christian schools and realized the worst people i have ever encountered were christians...my daughter was taken advantage of by her youth pastor (god wanted her to comfort him) i was physically and mentally abused as a kid in their care.... now that i have run far away im a much happier person...free to think for myself...its a beautiful thing.

[GQchris]

alright...

Check this out; insults on the internet are just pointless... so I'll tone down on it, and only do it in jest... this is a free country, we have the right to worship who we want, or have the choice not to worship...

With that being said, I kind of sympathize with everyone who said they are recovering catholics, LOL. Because honestly growing up catholic and the whole catholic elementary experience turned me away from God; seriously, it almost made me an athiest..

And alot of the time, when I come across atheists, I come to find out that they grew up catholic, LOL so I understand why they have so much hate and discontent, because I've been there...

okay back to normal, bash me cus of my screen name, call me a Homo.. whatever... I've always liked girls, always will...

[Tom Yum]

okay back to normal, bash me cus of my screen name, call me a Homo.. whatever... I've always liked girls, always will...

We assume you're male because that's what your intro says (the internet nevah lies..!)

[osopardo]

Leave God out of school, work, play...and church...and leave him for when you need him...

No Way, Jose! He's all-pervasive! He's everywhere! He's in every part of my life! He's there when I'm working, when I'm playing, when I'm sleeping...
'Cuz He wuvs me!


"Shekinah lights up all your Omni's
Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient"

[osopardo]

Mon cher, Hikage...

This young seminarian is given a church to pastor in a small town out west. It's his first church and he's very excited by the opportunity. He spends his first week in town introducing himself to everyone and putting flyers and advertisements on every lamp post and blank wall and storefront window he can find, announcing services that coming Sunday.

That Sunday morning he opens the church doors, rings the bell vigourously for about an hour and goes to wait at the pulpit.

No one comes in but a grizzled old cowboy who takes a seat in one of the front pews.

After nervously waiting for about a half hour for others to show up he finally goes down and sits next to the cowboy and dejectedly says, "Well, I guess I'll have to cancel services for today since you're the only one who showed up. I hope you don't mind."

The cowboy gives him a dead level look and says, "Sometimes in the wintertime I have to take a wagonload of hay to the cattle that's out on the range. If only one of 'em showed up, I shore wouldn't turn it away unfed!"

Inspired by this the young pastor exclaims, "You're absolutely right!" and mounts the pulpit, from which he delivers one of the most inspired, passionate sermons of all time. The preaching goes on for about three hours, as the young pastor draws from every source in his memory. When he's finished he goes down and sits in the pew next to the cowboy, who now appears to be really angry, and asks him, "How was that?"

The cowboy stands up and says to the young man, "Hell preacher! I said I wouldn't turn the cow away unfed, but I shore as hell wouldn't force-feed it the whole wagonload!"