Mixed Martial Bullshitters

[jubaji]

Originally posted by kungfu56
I know for a fact you don’t have to be bigger, faster, and stronger to win.

Well now, this is a whole different kettle o' fish.

You saying that smaller, slower, and weaker is the way to go?

[jules]

The UFC was a hypotheical question on "if two men were locked in a cage who would win?" nothing more and nothing less. You can say "It's not a real fight" and i agree it's not a fight. It's a sport, a very rough sport that is the closest thing to a one on one fight. I will say this though, i would put more faith in a UFC fighter that actually tests his skills on other great fighters rather than some Martial artist who says "my style is to deadly for UFC".

[MuayThaiFighter]

Originally posted by S.Anucha
16 oz gloves, only in sparring, well I wear 12 oz 8 oz for fights.... anyway gloves mean jack shit when you are using knees and elbows.

This post is not directly directed at anyone personally so relax.

The reason why I get so fed up with UFC fans claiming UFC to be realistic is that these guys (the fellas making the claims) usually have no fight experience whatsoever and take the word of a couple of buisness men promoting themselves and using "street" as a good tool.

Going to the ground in a bar is dumb, can you picture it? I am ready to get into a fight and the next thing I know is there is some student guy who read a book about Gracie's and UFC trying to take me to the ground!!! haha, man that would be hilarious! The one thing you will do however is try and get the fight over as quickly as possible and that means hitting him hard and fast. You dont want to try and take him to the ground for a submission!!! haha, although how wonderful it may work in UFC I doubt it would be as effective in a crowded pub or club, hell even on the street I doubt that strategy would be the first to use....

....the truth is, to fight in UFC its a good thing to learn ground grappling and I am not knocking the effectivness of ground grappling, I think we should all at least know some aspects of grappling as thats where most fights actually do go, STANDING clinch, when they do go to the ground it is because of lack of fighting ability and bad balance and no control, what happens when you know how to stand and grapple and fight? then the ground will be a strange far away place that you'd be better off never visiting!

Face the facts, UFC has only proven one thing and that is, to fight in UFC it would be a good idea to really concentrate on Muay Thai skills and mix it with a little ground work so as to get it back to where you'll get a knockout, on your feet.

Just because you are trained in BJJ do not feel that you will automatically dominate your opponent simply because he doesnt know BJJ or something similar, thats utter bullshit.

UFC is boring, its like watching paint dry, two men going for a submission is probably the most channel changing sport I can possibly imagine, similar to golf, when they do actually strike each other the techniques and skill is 50% to say the least. So to compare UFC with reality is the dumbest thing you could do, its dumb to compare any ring sport with reality....


......if you want to learn street self defence I would recommend not to learn any mystical art that has some death touch technique but simply join a Muay Thai gym, an authentic Muay Thai gym, Muay Thai is the first thing I would learn for street self defense, THE FIRST and foremost, why? well because its the easiest to learn and the most practical, straight forward no shit, mix that with the type of person you are and you will either have a shit fighter who knows Muay Thai or one crazy mofo who knows Muay Thai.

you are either born a fighter or you are not, you cannot become a fighter, you will either be a fighter or you will not be a fighter its as simple as that. UFC guys are born fighters thats why they are so tough and just because you will train in what they train in doesnt mean that you then become instant UFC fighter...!

So if you are the Uni student training in martial arts and feel you are the dogs bollox or the avid UFC fan who has never fought or experienced aggression from another human being I would ask you to think about the shit that you claim before actually claiming it in public, its makes you look stupid and makes other people get pissed off at you.

haha.

True gloves do mean shit in a real fight.I don't think anyone claims UFC to be a real fight but these tournaments to be the closest martial arts tournaments to real fights.

I agree that going to the ground in a pub to defend yourself would be plain stupid,because you have to be an idiot to want to fight anyone while on your back, however in most fights a person doesn't itentionally go to the ground they get taken down. In a pub or club people get drunk and start fights so it makes sense that one of you is going to be taken to ground and it most likely will be the drunk person.I would never take a person to ground to do submission unless in position where I had to,I'd rather win fight standing up.

"Face the facts, UFC has only proven one thing and that is, to fight in UFC it would be a good idea to really concentrate on Muay Thai skills and mix it with a little ground work so as to get it back to where you'll get a knockout, on your feet."

I agree to some extent. Although it is true that UFC has proven that Muay Thai skills with a little ground works best for them I disagree that it is the only thing UFC has proven.I feel that although not a real fight UFC has proven that stand up and grappling works best and makes any style a complete martial arts and would be very effective even in a real situation.

"its dumb to compare any ring sport with reality...."

Once again depends how you compare the two. A ring sport is obviously different from reality but the closest you will get to a real fight.To say they are exactly the same would no doubt be stupid and ignorant.

Take away the rules and grappling gloves in UFC and you have a real fight.

"if you want to learn street self defence I would recommend not to learn any mystical art that has some death touch technique but simply join a Muay Thai gym, an authentic Muay Thai gym, Muay Thai is the first thing I would learn for street self defense, THE FIRST and foremost, why? well because its the easiest to learn and the most practical, straight forward no shit, mix that with the type of person you are and you will either have a shit fighter who knows Muay Thai or one crazy mofo who knows Muay Thai."

I too would not recommend any mystical art for self-defense but would suggest something like Muay Thai.
To say Muay Thai is the most practical,straight forward,no shit is ignorant.

What do you mean by Muay Thai being most practical?

If you mean the most practical for stand up fighting then I agree but the most practical over all then I disagree.The most practical arts are the ones that mix Muay Thai with Grappling.

The best and most effective arts are MMA,

[S.Anucha]

Originally posted by MuayThaiFighter



.....Take away the rules and grappling gloves in UFC and you have a real fight.....

.....What do you mean by Muay Thai being most practical?....

mate take away the rules and gloves in any ring sport and you'll have a real fight!




....and Muay Thai is the most practical in the sense it doesnt take a ******* rocket scientist to learn how to throw a punch or elbow does it.

I havnt lost a fight yet because of lack of ground grappling knowledge, not yet! And i have found myself on the ground many a times only to get back up.

[S.Anucha]

Originally posted by jules
closest thing to a one on one fight

so why is UFC the closest thing to a one on one fight and a Muay Thai bout or boxing bout isnt?
explain please. Is it because they can wrestle on the ground? seriously why is it the closest thing to a real fight. The real fights I have seen look nothing like UFC matches to be honest, and they are over pretty quickly.

[S.Anucha]

Originally posted by MuayThaiFighter




The best and most effective arts are MMA,

sorry i think you should have said, the best and most effective martial arts for fighting in UFC are mma


MTF, I think you have contradicted yourself, no? I have read numerous posts with you claiming Muay Thai to be the ultimate... what happened? why the quick change of attitude?

[S.Anucha]

This has been taken from a very credible source.

I also having some experience in "street" scraps and most of my friends either being Doormen or ex-army (Para's and RM's, tough guys) who have served here in N.Ireland with violent tours, and not to mention the fact that living in a Council Estate in East Belfast allowed me to veiw the finer things in life, such as, fights on weekly basis.

The opinion I have for street fights are basicly written bellow. Just read it.

Written by Bill Kipp - President International F.A.S.T. Defense Association

"...Most street fights go to the ground!
It has been said (mostly by those who are promoting grappling systems and videos) that most street fights go to the ground. But what is the basis for these supposed facts?

I don't know about you but most street fights, including bar fights and even road rage fights I have seen are over in about ten or fifteen seconds. Usually the person who lands the first good shot and follows up with several more, is the winner.

Sure they might end up in a standing clinch or there may be some grabbing and some other crude techniques, but for the most part these things are settled pretty quickly.

The mid 90’s produced a new phenomenon that would impact the Martial Arts World more than anything since Bruce Lee. This was the Ultimate Fighting Challenge, produced by a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu family by the name of the Gracie’s.

In these no holds barred fights standup punch kick fighters routinely were taken to the ground and defeated by the seemingly unstoppable Gracie’s. This lead to a new rage of ground fighting schools across the country as traditional fighters desperately sought to even up the score.

Now years later the rage has subsided but the Gracie’s will have forever left their mark. Ground fighting was an important and neglected facet not adequately addressed in many Asian fighting arts. But do these same principles apply in street fights? In my personal experience of literally dozens of fights, only once did I ever end up on the ground. That was one classically ridiculous situation where a drunk called me out of the bar to fight. Leading an entourage of characters like something out of the movie Roadhouse, the two of us 'took it outside' to the back of the bar.

I was a young buck of 19 at the time and was pretty nervous as the macabre scene unfolded.. This other guy was obnoxiously drunk and had pissed off a number of bar patrons, so I was the emotional favorite, It did feel good to have the mob on my side. We stood there while my opponent spewed out drunken obscenities but making no move. I was getting fed up with the whole thing and really just wanted to end it so I could go back in and have a beer. Finally he took a long slow motion roundhouse swing at me. In fairly good shape and a trained Karateka, I moved in and straight punched him in the jaw. It all seemed like a slow motion movie as my fist skipped off his chin barely nicking him. To my disbelief he continued down to the ground as his feet slipped out from beneath and he landed flat on his back. Stunned and not knowing what else to do I dropped onto his chest and started smacking his face.

The whole thing seemed surreal and after a short while my friends thankfully pulled me off the poor drunken guy. With a detached awareness, I noticed blood all over my hands and shirt. It wasn’t mine.

What an amazing and impressive victory for me right? Well, the truth was that when our drunken lad swung at me, he lost his balance on some ground ice, (it was winter in New England) and my chip shot was enough to make his feet come out forcing him to slam to the ground. On landing he cut his hand on a piece of glass accounting for the blood. The entire exchange was a fluke caused by nothing I did at all but from a bizarre set of circumstances. His face wasn’t even bruised where I had been hitting him.

In my experience the reason most fights go to the ground is because the participants don’t really know how to fight, as was the case here. Succumbing to the adrenal rush people tend to flail ineffectually. Eventually a clinch ensues because nothing else is working. These inept grappling matches often end up on the ground due to the force of gravity more than anything else.

Years later when I did learn how to fight, not a single altercation took place where I ended up on the ground. A good stand up fighter should be able to take care of business without going down (and that is IF awareness and verbal skills didn’t stop the altercation). In speaking with several other experienced 'experts', we all seem to agree that most fights actually do not go to the ground if one of the people has any fighting skill at all. In fact we concur that the ground is not a good place at all to be in a fight.

Master Ricardo Murgel, former coach of the Brazil National Jiu Jitsu team and now a world reknown combat Jiu Jitsu Instructor, emphatically states that he will avoid going to the ground at all costs in a street situation. So what of the usefulness of ground fighting skills?

There are situations that do end up on the ground even among experienced fighters. Of course most of the complicated arm bars and joint locks are almost impossible to apply under duress just as in stand up fighting. But a basic knowledge of ground fighting skills is important to have. How to get someone off of you, to locate and attack vulnerable areas, and to get up and out of there as soon as possible should be learned and practiced under duress.

The argument can also be made that learning ground fighting skills makes it easier to see such attacks coming and neutralize them. Sport fighting and no holds barred events require ground fighting skill to be competitive. But there is a big difference between these consensual athletic contests and real life altercations. Very big differences.

In adrenal stress response training we use the ground fighting to really amp up the adrenaline intensity level. It never fails to hit home the concept of 90% spirit vs. 10% technique. Things get real primitive real fast among trained ground fighters and non alike..."

"...Bill Kipp is my partner in the above organization. During my years of training with him and applying his technology to my own self defense skills, I have renewed my absolute belief that directness and simplicity are the keys to real street self defense..."


"...The natural effect of real aggression causes what is called an "adrenaline dump".

This fear induced high volume shot of adrenaline is normal and natural and cannot be stopped, even by experienced black belts.
The effects of this "adrenaline dump" can be devastating, especially if you are not prepared for it.


The main problem is that many of the techniques that are taught in traditional training are too tricky or too complicated for the average person to properly execute. This is especially true under the duress of an all out street attack. Techniques that are highly complicated tend not to be executed properly, if at all, when the pressure is on and adrenaline levels are high...."

"...In my experience the reason most fights go to the ground is because the participants don’t really know how to fight, as was the case here. Succumbing to the adrenal rush people tend to flail ineffectually. Eventually a clinch ensues because nothing else is working. These inept grappling matches often end up on the ground due to the force of gravity more than anything else..."

That statement is an exact picture of a real fight!

[fullcircle]

"I havnt lost a fight yet because of lack of ground grappling knowledge, not yet! And i have found myself on the ground many a times only to get back up."

So basically, you haven't been taken to the ground by someone who knows how to grapple.

[S.Anucha]

fullcircle,

I know how to grapple, on my feet, and wether or not the guys who I have fought in the past know how to grapple standing or on the ground remains a mystery.

What i do know is I have never used ground grappling ever! who knows maybe if you do know how to ground grapple then you'd probably think that way when the time comes.... I personally prefer to stick to what I know works for me and with no plans to fight in UFC I think I'll keep it that way.

What would happen if a ground grappler started a fight with me in a pub or whatever? Mate I dont know but every person is different, be he a fecking expert at judo and boxing he also may be a crap fighter which means no amount of training will ever make him better!

I will say that simply because he knows how to grapple on the ground doesnt mean he will beat me! In the UFC of course he will "try" to dominate me, its like taking a ground grappler and sticking him in a Muay Thai fight, who would win? The street, pubs etc are nothing like UFC or Muay Thai fights so comparing UFC and Muay Thai with a street brawl is silly. Although I would prefer to know Muay Thai before ground grappling for that unpredictable time. If I was to ever consider fighting UFC then of course I would train in a little ground work but not to take the fight there rather to avoid it going there!

[jubaji]

Would you then suppose that if by some happenstance you do end up on the deck that you might be up the creek?

[Szczepankiewicz]

Look at all this bandwidth you chuckleheads have been chewing up to discuss something that has been hashed through time and again.

No one at Defend.net has stated (in very long time) that the UFC is real self-defense.

What do you think this is? E-Budo?

Can that crap and spare use the drama ladies.

Tsk. Tsk. You should be ashamed...

[fullcircle]

I am ashamed, I would say to S. Anucha, jump into a NHB/UFC tournament and see how you do, no one should be able to take you to the mat apparently, and being the MT master that you are, you should win easily.

[MuayThaiFighter]

Originally posted by S.Anucha



sorry i think you should have said, the best and most effective martial arts for fighting in UFC are mma


MTF, I think you have contradicted yourself, no? I have read numerous posts with you claiming Muay Thai to be the ultimate... what happened? why the quick change of attitude?

I never once claimed Muay Thai was the ultimate but what I did say is that it was the best for "STAND UP" and still believe that.

[FUH-Q]

ok anucka, i dont think most NHB competitors argue that MT is hands down the best stand up fighting method..........that being said, those same people also know that their are tons of people (BJJ, judo, high school/college wrestlers) who are extremely proficient at taking people to the ground. just as an expierience go find a good wrestler ( the olympic sport kind) and ask him to spend an hour with you. ask him to see if he can get you to the ground. if he is worth anything he should be succesfull more often than not.
many BJJ and other MMA train these same takedowns a lot and can get very proficant at them. many times a wrestler will fake a thai kick to get you to block, then when you raise your knee they shoot in and get the takedown.

i know where your coming from, i train and love MT; the only reason i started training BJJ was to learn to keep from going to the ground and/or get up if i go down. then i realized there are lots of people out there who can take just about anyone down and if you arent proficiant on the ground thats your ass.

[IPON]

Originally posted by S.Anucha
so why is UFC the closest thing to a one on one fight and a Muay Thai bout or boxing bout isnt?

They are both combat sports with there own stratagies. Ultamitely, the difference is in a Thai match you fight Thai fighters in the UFC you have the "potential" to fight an opponent from any style, hence MMA. So you preparation I would think is more qualitative since the potential is there for differnt stlyes.

But I do agree basically with what you say. And I think that people that have the eye of the tiger recognize what works and does not. People's ignorance is frustrating but at the end of the day, just suggest and move on people believe what they want don't stress.