Mixed Martial Bullshitters

[Garland]

MT does not ensure your survival, that is the whole point no matter how good you are.

Nor does anything else. Mr. Gong was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Nothing in the form of training can prevent a tragedy like that from happening. I still do not understand what your point is...
but you obviously have very little understanding of what goes on in the streets. Give me anyone else in that situation, and the outcome is still the same, true, if Mr. Gong did indeed pursue the car, he made a brazen and rash decision that anyone could have made in a similar situation. There was probably no way to know if the person had a gat until it was too late.

Take the following scenario;
Imagine if some guy managed to pick your wallet, you chase them down an alley, only to have them turn around with a knife or a gun at close range...it's not like in a class where they're all like, okay, I'm going to go slow or hold still in the exact same way and feed angles or lines in a predictable and known fashion while you defend...nope, it's more like, "BOO, SUPRISE, MUTHAFUCKA!" followed by stab stab stab or blam blam blam, followed by, if your lucky enough, sirens.

OR...give you some scenarios I heard from people I used to know, how's this for realism, and this is alot more likely than the "fluke" tragedy that happened with Mr. Gong.

you're a drug dealer, you and your girlfriend are out on a run, your waiting, and out of nowhere two guys come up to the car with guns drawn, your cars off and the locks are down, one of the guys gets in and hold the gun to your head telling you to pop the trunk and the other guys got a gun on your girl. They take your shit and pistol whip the **** out of both of you, maybe rape the girl.

Or...

You open the door to your house one day when you hear a knock, and there's 2 guys with ski masks and a shotgun, they take your shit, shit happens quick, and in an attempt to comply and maybe live through it all, you let them tie you up, and after all that shit they fucking shoot you.

Shit happens, both scenarios you can fight back to some extent, maybe get shot either way and die, but when don't you fight back.

If some **** pulls a gun on me and doesn't immediatly pull the trigger, they'd better fucking kill me before I can spot a weapon. They can fucking kill me, but I'll try my fucking best to take them out too...anything it takes to protect myself and my loved ones.

Why not fight it out in the end and have a slight chance to possibly prevent death...sometimes, dying is ineviable, might as well go down with my assailant's blood on my hands too.

[eXcessiveForce]

the point is the posters here talking like the are invincible and many are not even as proficient as mr. gong.

[EmptyneSs]

i hope i dont get shot.

[Tant01]

There was probably no way to know if the person had a (gun) until it was too late.

Take the following scenario;
..... I'm going to go slow or hold still in the exact same way and feed angles or lines in a predictable and known fashion while you defend...nope, it's more like, "BOO, SUPRISE, MUTHAFUCKA!" followed by stab stab stab or blam blam blam, followed by, if your lucky enough, sirens.

OR...
Shit happens, both scenarios you can fight back to some extent, maybe get shot either way and die, but when don't you fight back.

If some **** pulls a gun on me and doesn't immediatly pull the trigger, they'd better fucking kill me before I can spot a weapon. They can fucking kill me, but I'll try my fucking best to take them out too...anything it takes to protect myself and my loved ones.

Why not fight it out in the end and have a slight chance to possibly prevent death....

I love the attitude but lets examine what's left of your post (above) There are such things as "no win" scenarios, we will all die. Once you get past that the rest is easy. We need to evaluate as realistically as possible if our actions will escalate an already desperate situation. Almost any THING we do can make a situation worse. However, we can also do things to increase the odds in our favor.

The goal is survival, not to exact revenge or retrieve stolen property. It may be legal to defend your property in some states but is it wise? I would argue that a man running away is not a threat to you but if you give chase and yet you're still surprised by a weapon? (pity the fool). By violating rule ONE of combat you set yourself up for destruction. Remember rule #1? "Never underestimate your enemy".

Cooperate! Be a good victim! Feint complete compliance and put him, them at ease. Silat (fighting or the combat application of Pentjak) strategy includes elaborate deceptions for just such a case. Weak counterpart position is easy when they have all the POWER. "Please don't shoot that..." EASY NOW! WHOA there... anything you want buddy..." Even on your knees you can punch him in the nuts... Escape and evasion. If you stand still and very close you're an easy target There's a (lets say 50/50) chance he will shoot you. If you run there's a 50/50 chance he will hit you. If it hits you lets say there's a 50/50 chance it hits a vital area. For every 5 feet of distance you lower the odds that he will hit you by about 50%. What would you do? Run up to him and take his gun away and shoot him with it? NO, run away! Unless you have better weapons, better training and tested and proven methods you better play it smart. (SAFE)

Without an escape route it will be up to you to decide if, when and how to create one. Perhaps they will make a mistake or perhaps not...

[retired]

eXcessiveForce
I agree with most of what you say but think the story of the guy who got shot was inappropriate as he just done what any regular guy would have done & not because of him MT skills.

[MuayThaiFighter]

i disagree.

I also disagree.

[MuayThaiFighter]

I love the attitude but lets examine what's left of your post (above) There are such things as "no win" scenarios, we will all die. Once you get past that the rest is easy. We need to evaluate as realistically as possible if our actions will escalate an already desperate situation. Almost any THING we do can make a situation worse. However, we can also do things to increase the odds in our favor.

The goal is survival, not to exact revenge or retrieve stolen property. It may be legal to defend your property in some states but is it wise? I would argue that a man running away is not a threat to you but if you give chase and yet you're still surprised by a weapon? (pity the fool). By violating rule ONE of combat you set yourself up for destruction. Remember rule #1? "Never underestimate your enemy".

Cooperate! Be a good victim! Feint complete compliance and put him, them at ease. Silat (fighting or the combat application of Pentjak) strategy includes elaborate deceptions for just such a case. Weak counterpart position is easy when they have all the POWER. "Please don't shoot that..." EASY NOW! WHOA there... anything you want buddy..." Even on your knees you can punch him in the nuts... Escape and evasion. If you stand still and very close you're an easy target There's a (lets say 50/50) chance he will shoot you. If you run there's a 50/50 chance he will hit you. If it hits you lets say there's a 50/50 chance it hits a vital area. For every 5 feet of distance you lower the odds that he will hit you by about 50%. What would you do? Run up to him and take his gun away and shoot him with it? NO, run away! Unless you have better weapons, better training and tested and proven methods you better play it smart. (SAFE)

Without an escape route it will be up to you to decide if, when and how to create one. Perhaps they will make a mistake or perhaps not...

I agree with you,however I do doubt that "every 5 feet of distance,you lower the odds that he will hit you by about 50%" To be honest I don't think moving away from a guy with a gun unless it is a really far distance is going to give you any less of a chance of him missing.It's not that hard to shoot someone from a fair distance unless you're freaking blind and if you are, you shouldn't be carrying a gun on you then.

[MuayThaiFighter]

And this is why the president of Fairtex is dead. he began to believe his own press.

This is the most ignorant statement I have yet heard.

You can be the best karate person,muay thai fighter,pankrationist,shoot fighter,grappler,jkd,judo expert any martial arts you can think of but when it comes to a gun all your techniques are gone down the drain.No amount of training in any martial arts is going to safe your ass against a gun.

I always said that Muay Thai is the best for stand up self-defense and street defense of course I meant against another unarmed opponent but like I just said no art is going to safe you against a gun,no human being is faster then a bullet whether you believe it or not.

I don't care if you're a 10 th degree black belt in your art one pull of the trigger and you're history.

[MuayThaiFighter]

what about ground n pound ??? MMA is not ruled by muay thai or bjj or boxing, or anything like tkd. It is ruled by position fighters with hard ****** heads ,great submission defense, great takedowns, good ground n pound, and good standing clinch skills.. It's all about timing and positioning.
Sure you can be a good kickboxer, but yes even in streetfights you will go to the ground and one day the guy you are fighting will be a wrestler who can strike and then guess what??? You're going to be hurting the next day.

MMA is not ruled by muay thai or bjj or boxing, or anything like tkd. It is ruled by position fighters with hard ****** heads ,great submission defense, great takedowns, good ground n pound, and good standing clinch skills.. It's all about timing and positioning.

True,it's not ruled by muay thai,bjj or boxing however most if not all of the fighters know at least some muay thai and bjj together.MMA is not one single art it's two to four or more different arts combined.

Since when does having a hard head have anything to do with UFC although I do agree it helps if you want to last more then one round.UFC is all about stand up fighting (mostly muay thai) and grappling (mostly brazilian jujitsu) using submissions,takedowns like you stated but lets not forget about strikes and knees to head.

I disagree about the good ground n pound,which I think you mean pound for pound on the ground.Alot of the guys are huge so it could be true to some extent but that's not always the case lets not forget about when the Gracies used to fight in UFC.Royce was about 140 lbs ,correct me if I'm wrong,and yet he took guys 3x his size to the ground and beat them.

Sure you can be a good kickboxer, but yes even in streetfights you will go to the ground and one day the guy you are fighting will be a wrestler who can strike and then guess what??? You're going to be hurting the next day

Not necessarily true because a good kickboxer might be able to knock a grappler out before he has a chance to take him to the ground,I'm not saying a grappler can't beat a kickboxer,because I'm sure some can but there are also some that can't,it works both ways.

You asked what would happen if a wrestler knows how to strike but how about if a kickboxer also knows how to grapple?

I believe a kickboxer that also has grappling skills will beat any wrestler or grappler with some striking skills because most grapplers know very little about striking.A grappler with lots of skills in striking and kicking on the other hand may or may not win.

Most grapplers don't care about striking as far as I know because their main objective is to just get in on you and take you to the ground,which is not always a good thing.Grappling like Kickboxing and any other art is not good on it's own.As far as I'm concerned grappling in general is one of the most useless martial arts if done alone but very useful when mixed with a stand up art.Stand up and grappling go hand in hand with each other.

[eXcessiveForce]

you're still not getting it.

MT teaches how to fight in the ring, It works outside the ring as well but there are things it does not teach. It doesn't teach the value in avoidance because it concentrates on fighting.

It does not take into account weapons or verbal tactics. So it is not the best art for self defense. It may be a great art for stand up, and it could be taught for self defense if someone added to it.

Self defense would have said not to go after the car. He was still okay and he was unarmed. He obviously believed he could handle the situation or he would not have gone after them. at this point self defense breaks down. He wasn't defending himself, he was escalating. Now he is dead.

As to guns, they are not invinible, just because you get shot you are not necessarily dead. Also with adrenaline pumping people usually have trouble aiming. So the farther away you get the better chance of not getting hit.

The cops that pullover over a van in the US were not shot when the guys came out with automatic weapons. I think it was around 176 shots were fired between the bad guys and the cops. No one was shot and they were less than 30 feet from eachother. that is what adrenaline does.

[Tant01]

I agree with you,however I do doubt that "every 5 feet of distance,you lower the odds that he will hit you by about 50%" To be honest I don't think moving away from a guy with a gun unless it is a really far distance is going to give you any less of a chance of him missing.It's not that hard to shoot someone from a fair distance unless you're freaking blind and if you are, you shouldn't be carrying a gun on you then.

Thanks for your feedback and you may be right, I just threw out 50% as a generalized guess, I don't think it's that far off. One: Moving being the key word. Almost any place you might be will have a barrier of some sort nearby. It doesn't need to be a car or a building or anything bullet proof it just needs to block his sight of you or even just part of you. If you look at statistical evidence most shootings happen within 5 feet and almost half of those are point blank (contact shots) I shoot fair for an amature, I'm no Bob Munden but there ARE defenses against guns that work and those who say there are none lack skill or confidence or just don't know what they're talking about. I've had guns stripped out of my hand, that's how you learn to hold on to it and retain it against someone with the nuts to try taking it from you. Also why 1 in 5 officers shot in the line of duty are shot by their own weapon... So there might be a slim chance that there are defensive tactics that work against a gun, Armor comes to mind. I'll be the first guy to admit that "closing the gap" against a gunman is a bad idea but if he's already got that thing in my face and hasn't shot me yet, you damn right I'll take it and break his arm too!


Michael Jannich (sp?) has a quote that goes like this. "Don't judge others by your own crappy standards." Sometimes he has a point, and he's probably a bit egocentric but really you might miss out on some good stuff if you go in with preconception of what can or can't be done...

[MuayThaiFighter]

Thanks for your feedback and you may be right, I just threw out 50% as a generalized guess, I don't think it's that far off. One: Moving being the key word. Almost any place you might be will have a barrier of some sort nearby. It doesn't need to be a car or a building or anything bullet proof it just needs to block his sight of you or even just part of you. If you look at statistical evidence most shootings happen within 5 feet and almost half of those are point blank (contact shots) I shoot fair for an amature, I'm no Bob Munden but there ARE defenses against guns that work and those who say there are none lack skill or confidence or just don't know what they're talking about. I've had guns stripped out of my hand, that's how you learn to hold on to it and retain it against someone with the nuts to try taking it from you. Also why 1 in 5 officers shot in the line of duty are shot by their own weapon... So there might be a slim chance that there are defensive tactics that work against a gun, Armor comes to mind. I'll be the first guy to admit that "closing the gap" against a gunman is a bad idea but if he's already got that thing in my face and hasn't shot me yet, you damn right I'll take it and break his arm too!


Michael Jannich (sp?) has a quote that goes like this. "Don't judge others by your own crappy standards." Sometimes he has a point, and he's probably a bit egocentric but really you might miss out on some good stuff if you go in with preconception of what can or can't be done...

Well I guess you're calling me stupid then because I don't believe gun defenses work.Ever tried to duck or catch a bullet? Probably not,either way it's impossible.A bullet is faster then a man can move.

Not many cops actually die online of duty because most often criminals are out numbered by the cops and not all criminals kill,often they carry a weapon as away to threaten someone but never actually use it at least here in Canada anyways.If a cop does get killed on duty it's more then likely because the cop hadn't pulled his gun yet.after all a cop is not allowed to pull his gun from holster unless he knows for sure the guy he is chasing has a weapon and by then it may be too late for the cop to shoot back.

If gun defenses work then why is it that in war when prisoners are caught and put in line with a gun to their head they are unable to defend themselves without a gun and unable to escape ? Could it not be because one pull of the trigger and the prisoner is freaking dead ? I definitely think so.

If someone manages to disarm someone it's more then likely that it is because the guy with a gun hesitated or really didn't have any intention of using it,he just used it to threaten the person,should he have used it there would have been no chance of defending against it.Besides most people who do intend on using their gun do it unexpectedly.Another thing to consider is even if gun defenses do work which I hardly doubt, a person with a gun pointed at them 9 out of 10x will freeze regardless of training.You can train to defend against a gun all your life but when it actually happens that someone threatens you with one it becomes a different story,human nature takes over and you freeze.

if he's already got that thing in my face and hasn't shot me yet, you damn right I'll take it and break his arm too!

I probably would too but that's because if he hasn't shot you yet chances are he never planned on using it, he just wanted to scare the shit out of you to make you give him what he wants.

[MuayThaiFighter]

you're still not getting it.

MT teaches how to fight in the ring, It works outside the ring as well but there are things it does not teach. It doesn't teach the value in avoidance because it concentrates on fighting.

It does not take into account weapons or verbal tactics. So it is not the best art for self defense. It may be a great art for stand up, and it could be taught for self defense if someone added to it.

Self defense would have said not to go after the car. He was still okay and he was unarmed. He obviously believed he could handle the situation or he would not have gone after them. at this point self defense breaks down. He wasn't defending himself, he was escalating. Now he is dead.

As to guns, they are not invinible, just because you get shot you are not necessarily dead. Also with adrenaline pumping people usually have trouble aiming. So the farther away you get the better chance of not getting hit.

The cops that pullover over a van in the US were not shot when the guys came out with automatic weapons. I think it was around 176 shots were fired between the bad guys and the cops. No one was shot and they were less than 30 feet from eachother. that is what adrenaline does.

It doesn't teach the value in avoidance because it concentrates on fighting.

Geez that's funny and all this time I thought learning how to fight was a form of avoidance.If you can fight you maybe able to avoid getting pounded on or be put in terrible positions especially if you know MMA.

It does not take into account weapons or verbal tactics. So it is not the best art for self defense. It may be a great art for stand up, and it could be taught for self defense if someone added to it.

Well most weaponed arts are useless since most schoools teach only old traditional weapons which you would never use in reality.People don't walk around with nunchuks,sais or tonfas which are considered useless these days with all the guns available.Try using a nunchuk,sai or tonfa against a gun and you will ended up a corps.

[Garland]

you're still not getting it.

MT teaches how to fight in the ring, It works outside the ring as well but there are things it does not teach. It doesn't teach the value in avoidance because it concentrates on fighting.

It does not take into account weapons or verbal tactics. So it is not the best art for self defense. It may be a great art for stand up, and it could be taught for self defense if someone added to it.

Self defense would have said not to go after the car. He was still okay and he was unarmed. He obviously believed he could handle the situation or he would not have gone after them. at this point self defense breaks down. He wasn't defending himself, he was escalating. Now he is dead.

As to guns, they are not invinible, just because you get shot you are not necessarily dead. Also with adrenaline pumping people usually have trouble aiming. So the farther away you get the better chance of not getting hit.

The cops that pullover over a van in the US were not shot when the guys came out with automatic weapons. I think it was around 176 shots were fired between the bad guys and the cops. No one was shot and they were less than 30 feet from eachother. that is what adrenaline does.

Damn man, what the **** you smoking. Just because a gunshot wound may not kill you on the spot, definitely doesn't mean that it won't take the fight right the **** out of you.

You quote that Muay Thai teaches only how to fight and now to...how'd you put it "deal with weapons or VERBAL tactics."

More bullshit. True muay thai doesn't teach small arms or how to use a knife, etc, it still teaches basic body mechanics that one can use to prevent getting killed, if you wan't an example, ask a muay thai guy to knife spar in a controlled enviornment the same way many so-called "reality based martial artists" do, and they will do as well as anybody else.
Verbal tactics, have you ever had a ring fight? You know what a corner is??

Despite all of this, no martial arts or self defense system in the world has a fully working, 100% of the time, realistic gun defense, except for counter sniping, where your shooting at somebody who doesn't know where you are.

Muay thai is as complete a stand-up art as they can get, and because it deals with easier motions, it's easier to learn, and it doesn't rely on a great deal of fine motor functions which make it much more applicable in a self defense situation than any other TMA.

FMA's are better for edged and impact weapons, no doubt, and Krav Maga and Haganah use stuff out of the FMA's for their defenses, which work some of the time, JKD based stuff works some of the time.

Hell, I've heard of some lucky TKD guy knocking a gun out of an assailant's hands with a fucking flying side kick.

Sometimes things work, but in all honesty, and with all lucky strikes out, do you think you could pull off any gun strip or defense on somebody inside a moving car?

That's like "duck and cover" for a nuclear bomb.

I'd like to see a live test, live ammo, with some cop who wasn't in on it does, as one of these reality based martial arts guru's training partners, see just how well the strip does on a reactive and unwilling opponent.
Start them off from 10 feet away from each other.
"Stop" "Don't Move" .....POP
"He Moved"

[Tant01]

Well I guess you're calling me stupid then because I don't believe gun defenses work.Ever tried to duck or catch a bullet? Probably not,either way it's impossible.A bullet is faster then a man can move.

.......

Not at all but the argument is. Of course no one is faster than a bullet....

Kansetsu-waza is the ticket to disarms. Or just run...

We used flight deck vests and head gear to play with wax bullets. I do not recommend this primitive technology for learning disarms. it was highly unauthorized and violated the UCMJ... There are no gaurantees with ANYTHING when it comes to taking a man's gun away but it can be done. As I said, it's a good way to learn retention skills too.

You live in a free country, believe as you wish...