Creation or Evolution?

[Hikage]

Wow, you said a whole lot of nothing in so many words.. I'm impressed. You are mistaken in saying that it is my job to prove God. I did not post on this thread until someone made claims that they read on a subway wall. It is their job, my friend, to prove their statements.

Since you have also mentioned the "glaring and consistent contradictions" I invite you as well to prove YOUR statements. I'm not going to idly sit back and watch you spout of letters of the alphabet without making words. Now cough up the proof.

-Hikage

PS> 60% of all statistics are made up.

[Sanitarium]

Wow, you said a whole lot of nothing in so many words.. I'm impressed.

well, elaborate then

You are mistaken in saying that it is my job to prove God.

Perhaps I should have clarified, 'you' implying 'the believer/defender' and not you in paticular.

Since you have also mentioned the "glaring and consistent contradictions" I invite you as well to prove YOUR statements.

Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)

Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex 34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2)
Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20)

Should we tell lies?
Ex. 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.(Prov. 12:22; Rev. 21:8)
1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (II Thess. 2:11; Josh. 2:4-6 with James 2:25)

Should we steal?
Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13)
Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33)

Shall we keep the Sabbath?
Ex. 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (Ex. 31:15; Num. 15:32,36)
Is. 1:13 The new moons and the Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity. (John 5:16; Matt. 12:1-5)


Shall we make Graven images?
Ex. 20:4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven...earth...water. (Lev. 26:1)
EX. 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.

Are we "saved" through works?
Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21)


Should good works be seen?
Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works. (I Peter 2:12)
Matt. 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them...that thine alms may be in secret. (Matt. 23:5)


Should we own slaves?
Lev. 25:45-46 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy...and they shall be your posession...they shall be your bondmen forever. (Gen. 9:25; Ex. 21:2,7; Joel 3:8; Luke 12:47; Col. 3:22)
Is. 58:6 Undo the heavy burdens...break every yoke. (Matt. 23:10)


Does God change his mind?
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)


Are we punished for our parent's sins?
Ex. 20:5 For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. (Ex. 34:7)
Ezek. 18:20 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.

Is God good or evil?
Psa. 145:9. The Lord is good to all. (Deut. 32:4; James 1:13)
Is. 45:7 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. (Lam 3:38; Jer. 18:11; Ezek. 20:25)

Is God Peaceable?
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. (Luke 2:14; Acts 10:36)
Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 22:36)

Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Shall we call people names?
Matt. 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
Matt. 23:17 (Jesus said) Ye fools and blind.

Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at anytime. (Ex 33:20; Tim. 6:16; John 6:46; I John 4:12)
Gen. 32:30 For I have seen god face to face. (Ex. 33:11, 23; Is. 6:1; Job 42:5)

How many gods are there?
Deut. 6:4 The Lord or God is one Lord.
Gen. 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image.(Gen. 3:22; I John 5:7)

Are we all sinners?
Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned. (Rom. 3:10; Psa.14;3)
Job 1:1 There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright. (Gen. 7:1; Luke 1:5-6)

When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:22 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
John 19:14-15 And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out...crucify him!"

Shall we obey the law?
I Peter 2:13 Submit yourself to every ordinance of man.
Acts 5:29 We ought to obey God rather than men.

I'm not going to idly sit back and watch you spout of letters of the alphabet without making words. Now cough up the proof.

I don't need proof, I have this thing called common sense on my side combined with proven logic, proven science, intelligence.

PS> 60% of all statistics are made up.

100% of the bible is made up.

Btw, were your parents christian?

[Lizard]

Evolution.

There is no such thing as God, the concept of a God is a lingering example of 2000 year old human lack of knowledge and should have been phased out of existence.

Everything in the world around us points towards evolution and logical science, nothing points towards God except fairytale books which people are still to this day indoctrinated with from birth.

All the oh so convenient getouts like 'dont take the bible literally' sadly don't make up for the glaring and consistent contradictions, hypocrisy and vagueness in the bible.

95% of religious people are religious (and so defensive and adamant they're right) because their parents taught them to believe in God before they were allowed to think for themselves, mainly in middle eastern countries and Southern America.

Luckily over here in England we're slowly becoming less religious and abandoning the shackles of old, the people you see at churches are mainly in their 60/70/80s. This is because our parents dont fill our minds with rubbish before we're even capable of rational thought, and well we're growing out of it really.

At the end of the day, no (as I'm sure has been/will be asked) we logical people cannot 'disprove' god. But that is irrelevant. Seeing as logic, the world around us, evidence and theory is on our side, the onus is actually on you to prove God. It's like me saying 'I'm Bruce Lee's brother, I can punch 2000 times a second'. Can you disprove it? No. Do you have to? No

Amen to that brother. My parents did not try to indoctrinate me into christianity at an early age.

The story of my contact with christianity goes like this:

Someone with a logical, anylitical mind looks at a religion from an unbiased stance and decides that it is bullcrap.

It is a tale of hope and joy.

I too am from england and I shudder when I see some of the beleifs put forward by american fundamentalists (eg "pro life groups" who follow jesus's messege of peace and tolerance by killing and bombing things).

[Lizard]

Wow, you said a whole lot of nothing in so many words.. I'm impressed. You are mistaken in saying that it is my job to prove God. I did not post on this thread until someone made claims that they read on a subway wall. It is their job, my friend, to prove their statements.

Since you have also mentioned the "glaring and consistent contradictions" I invite you as well to prove YOUR statements. I'm not going to idly sit back and watch you spout of letters of the alphabet without making words. Now cough up the proof.

-Hikage

PS> 60% of all statistics are made up.

You want inconsistancy:

Incest is wrong We are all descended from 2 people.

God is a perfect being. God gets angry (a fallable human emotion).

God is all powerful. God cannot prevent eve from taking apple.

God is good. God drowns many innocent people.


The bible was written with the intention of selling christianity to the romans. If the people who really knew and understood jesus had written it then christianity would probably have died out.

[Hikage]

Alright, it's on then. Finally, someone who can bring something to the table. BTW, I am impressed, how did you find these so quickly? Which website did you hit up to do teh thinking for you?

Some of these examples are pretty good and are going to require some research. I need to look up the passages in order that I can see the context (as I don't have the Bible memorized.) Remember, it is important that any time you quote something from the Bible you always take into note the context in which it was written.

Others of these examples are lame, but that it to be expected. I ask that you please give me some time to make the necessary research and I will give you your explanation w/o resorting to cliche and pansy rationale, but rather with truth and logic.

Lizard: I am sorry you feel that way. Bear in mind, not everyone here is in accordance with Bush's decision to rule the world and many of us cannot wait to vote him out later this year. IT has nothing to do with fundamentalism.

Yes, parents were christians. However, I denounced their particular faith becuase it has serious flaws in it. I apologize to teh Lutherans out there but the message you preach is flawed. For a time I lived as an atheist and when I did come to Christianity my parents were no where in sight.

-Hikage

[Sanitarium]

Fair enough, but you do realise that the bible's inconsistencies are only part of my/our argument. Not the biggest part either.

[Lizard]

Speaking as someone who is good at maths, one of my biggest concerns would be that with all of the books out there that were supposidly inspired by god, how do you know youve got the right one?

Bible, Qui'ran, Guru granth sahib.

Already theres only a 1 in 3 chance that youve got the right book. Personaly, I dont like anything less than a 1 in 2.

And seriously now, if i wrote/inspired people to write a book about how great and good i was, would you accept it all? or would you consider that i might be biased?

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Honestly, where do you get this crap? This is just another lame argument that you heard someone else use and you haven't researched it yourself. Where's your proof? You fool, they don't use previous tranlastions to create new translations. To do so would be ridiculous and pointless. No one would read it. Translation teams and their practicies are always placed under heavy scrutiny. For example, there are a number of atheists placed onto these translation teams in order that outsiders could not claim that theists are tainting the story and to ensure an accurate translation.

Sure the translation teams these days are closely watched but what about back then? They needed more followers and what better way to reap them in than by translating and exaggerating one text to anotherin hopes of getting more recruits.

On a side note I would like to ask a question. If God created Adam and Eve in the beginning, how did they co-exist with humans? I'm not trying to challenge you with this question but am merely asking how a creationist views this.

[IPON]

If God created Adam and Eve in the beginning, how did they co-exist with humans?

What do you mean by co exist with humans?

The Bible is filled with gaps and questions. Here is a good one from Genesis chapter 5 after Cain kills Able:

5:16 - And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

5:17 - And Cain knew his wife; and she concieved and bare E'noch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after his son E'noch

5:18 - And unto E'noch was bornI'rad: and I'rad begat Me-hu'ja-el: and Me-hu'ja-el begat Me-thu'sa-el: and Me-thu'sa-el begat La'mech

So the obvious question is if only Adam and Eve and teh 2 sons existed who did Cain knock up. Well Maybe csomeone can give a good answer but I have never heard a respectable answer and I have asked many theologians. I have heard angels to technically adam an eve were not the only humans created on earth, they were the only ones in Eden.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Oh sorry, I ment co-exist with dinosaurs.

Another question is, when they only had 2 sons, how did they reproduce?

[eXcessiveForce]

hahaha, jeez, reading some of this has been quite entertaining.

Some of you should really try learning about what you are talking about before you speak.

Also it is hard to take a translated version of something and then point out areas that seem contridictory.

If you are going to do it you better go back and read it in the original before you make your judgements.


And for lizard who keeps talking logic but rarely displays any. Anger is only illogical to vulcans.
Evil is defined as in oposition to gods will
According to the bible there are no innocents.
Death is not a punishment according to the bible.

There is no proof for or against God.

Questions that shed light on creation and evolution.

Did God create the universe with AGE? Adam and Eve were adults not babies so Yes.
Are there really any timelines in the bible? No there are not. There was no concept of 1 million 3 thousand years ago they had no need for such a number.
As a book does any other text support the bible. Yes, historical accounts point to the fact that many of the events took place and that people were in the areas that they said they were.


As for lutheranism. I would be interested in hearing the "flaw" in the teachings and to what sect of Lutherans you are referring.

[Lizard]

And for lizard who keeps talking logic but rarely displays any. Anger is only illogical to vulcans.
Evil is defined as in oposition to gods will
According to the bible there are no innocents.
Death is not a punishment according to the bible.

There is no proof for or against God.

Questions that shed light on creation and evolution.

I have a very logical mind. I have already won this argument a few times. Perhaps you just have a hard time understanding me.

Anger is illogical because a computer does not display anger. To posses anger is only logical if it proves advantageous in your current situation (and even THEN the emotion itself is not logical). Unless god has a brain with chemicals similar to ours then he cannot expirience such things. If he has a brain then he is limited.

Death is not considered a punishment? my BS alarm is going off.

Look Ive recently converted to Maltheism, the most cool and rebelious faith available. God DID write the bible, its glaring inconsistensies and hypocracy prove not that he does not exist, merely that he is an evil liar who requires our worship to survive (which is why he created a world full of evil).

Strange as it may seem considering my obvious sillyness, my beleifs are actualy much easier to prove than yours.

[Sanitarium]

There is no proof for or against God.

But we don't need proof against god, it's your job to prove he exists. Because all the evidence available points towards there not being a God. Not a Christian one anyway.

[eXcessiveForce]

I have a very logical mind. I have already won this argument a few times. Perhaps you just have a hard time understanding me.

Nope no trouble at all. I was here when you switch from on martial art is best to another is best. Very few of your statements display logic or even a grasp of what logic is. I have not seen a winner of this debate. From anyone. Nor have people been using arguments that would even lead to proving or disproving creation or evolution or the existence of God. Logic only tells us if something is logically true or false. Not whether something is a fact or even based in reality. It is a deduction upon reasoning with regard to a certain premis.

Anger is illogical because a computer does not display anger. To posses anger is only logical if it proves advantageous in your current situation (and even THEN the emotion itself is not logical). Unless god has a brain with chemicals similar to ours then he cannot expirience such things. If he has a brain then he is limited.

Please prove this premis. Saying something does not make it so. You are saying that GOD which may or may not exist cannot experience emotion because you say he cannot? Please provide proof because if you can prove that he cannot experience emotion you must prove that he exists. To prove that an all powerful being (God) exists you invalidate just about every argument made in this tread to date.

Death is not considered a punishment? my BS alarm is going off.

Death according to the Bible is when you are sent for judgement before God. It is either your ticket to heaven or hell. According to the bible if you have lived correctly you will enter heaven a place of joy and happiness. How can this be a punishment?

Look Ive recently converted to Maltheism, the most cool and rebelious faith available. God DID write the bible, its glaring inconsistensies and hypocracy prove not that he does not exist, merely that he is an evil liar who requires our worship to survive (which is why he created a world full of evil).

Exactly how does being a rebelious faith make it "cool" Again you say God is evil but evil is doing contrary to Gods will. So unless you can prove that he exists and that he is doing contrary to his own will he cannot be evil. According to the Bible evil was brought upon the world because of free will. people had the right to think for themselves.

Strange as it may seem considering my obvious sillyness, my beleifs are actualy much easier to prove than yours.

Again please prove your beliefs. To prove something you will need to provide factual evidence. Not simply state something is so because you would like it to be.

Also please tell me what my beliefs are. I have not stated in this thread what my beliefs are. So I again would like to know how you can make this statement logically.


In the entire post there was not one shred of logic or a logical argument made regarding the topic.

Maybe you should actually take a course in logic so that you understand what it really is.

[sherwinc]

Oh sorry, I ment co-exist with dinosaurs.

Another question is, when they only had 2 sons, how did they reproduce?

it is a very easy question for me to answer.....

his two sons got sex with the Cro-Magnon girls during that time.... another evolution occurs until now.... we.... the Modern Man.... hehehe


CONVINCED???????