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Creation or Evolution?

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  • #46
    No I think Ill leave this argument before Im beaten any further...

    Maltheism is "cool" because of two reasons:

    1) It makes more sense, an all perfect, all powerful god would not exist (since existance is imperfection), would not create a universe (it would have no need of one and so, being perfect would not waste its energy), would not write a book about how great it was and control peoples lives (pointless and cruel).

    2) Rebels in a tribal society had a good chance of overthrowing the dominant males and replacing them, therefore the females that were attracted to them at an early stage (while they were rebelious) had children that did well (as the children of a dominant male)... hence evolution... forget that one. Its obviously the case but since the thread is a debate on evolution... just complicates things up, an sub argument whose validity is questioned by the nature of the thread.

    By the way, since most logicaly good children do well at science and are indoctrinated (yes I admit, scientists do it too) into evolution, science has an unfair advantage in these debates. Im impressed with some of excessive forces arguments and its better to NOT beleive but to understand than to beleive but NOT understand.

    My younger brother beleives in evolution and laughs at the six days creation... but he has never made an effort to understand evolution, his faith is as blind and foolish as those who do not question the bible. I tried questioning him about how he can fully beleive things that he doesnt even understand but he got upset... to be honest Im still hoping hes adopted or somehow got all the opposite genes to me...


    • #47
      And for the record, evolution DOES exist unless Something is deliberately keeping species the same by preventing useful mutations from occuring.

      The real question is: evolution affects all species, they will slowly change but is that how they were Created?

      This argument should be:

      Were we created and are now slowly evolving? Or did we start off as microbes then evolve to how we are now (and are continuing to evolve)? ... or is god playing tricks on us?


      • #48
        Oh sorry... evil is not defined as contrary to gods will. Evil is a label we put on things because thats the way morality works. This could be through evolution or possibly god wants/requires us to have independant morals.

        If god is all powerful then nothing could ever be contrary to his will and nothing would be evil.

        Get out of THAT one.


        • #49
          Response to holes in the Bible... part 1

          I must admit that I’m a little disappointed as this was easier than I thought it would have been. I urge you to take all I have said into consideration and post any further questions that you may have. I understand that this is not all we are talking about on this post, but I think I have thoroughly ruined the argument that the Bible has “glaring inconsistencies.”

          For further reading, I encourage you to read Lee Strobel’s (a professional journalist) The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith. In the first, he tries to disprove Christianity and ends up becoming a Christian himself. In the second, he posses the big questions (Why is their evil) to the biggest theological minds of today.
          Also, look at and click on the resources. I suggest to you Pastor Steve’s resources and Pastor Eric’s Resources.

          Ok, here we go….

          Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
          Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)

          Many people, Christians included, struggle with the notion that God can be warlike at times. Most prefer to think of him as only loving and all-peaceful but this is an inaccurate portrayal.
          Man is not supposed to indiscriminately end another’s life out of anger, jealousy or retribution (ex. Cain and Abel). There are times, however, when a civilization is oppressing God’s people that entire civilizations have been destroyed. In the past, when civilizations have threatened Israel, God has put them to death because they were threatening to conquer his chosen people. God intervened and had the Israelites put to death all of the opposing force, women and children too. It seems barbaric, but history has shown us that if they do not, the Israelites will incorporate the foreigners into their own civilization (no problem yet) but also incorporate their ideas and culture, which usually includes some form of pagan worship, thus separating them from their leader.

          Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex 34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2)
          Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20)

          The problem here is that there is an incorrect translation. The original text uses 2 different words for jealousy. Unfortunately, the English language does not support this distinction. It’s similar to how the language of the Eskimos has 42 words for snow. The jealousy which refers to God is accurate; however the jealousy that we are to avoid would better be translated as envy or coveting.
          So what’s the difference? Jealousy is defined as something that is rightfully yours and is for some reason being taken away from you. In this case, our love and devotion for God are rightfully his. As our creator, he deserves our love and devotion, but that love is being re-directed in the form of idols and he is jealous of those idols.
          Envy or coveting are defined as having desire for something that is not yours and to which you have no rightful claim, i.e. your neighbor’s wife. Now that brings to light a different question. Are we able to be jealous as God is? Yes. There is a such thing as righteous anger. If someone sleeps with your wife, you have a right to be angry because they are taking something that is yours. Jesus overturned the tables in the temple because they were making a mockery of the temple. Once again, righteous anger.

          Should we tell lies?
          Ex. 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.(Prov. 12:22; Rev. 21:8)
          1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (II Thess. 2:11; Josh. 2:4-6 with James 2:25)

          These are not God’s people who are lying. Read on…
          1 Kings 22

          Micaiah Prophesies Against Ahab

          1 For three years there was no war between Aram and Israel. 2 But in the third year Jehoshaphat king of Judah went down to see the king of Israel. 3 The king of Israel had said to his officials, "Don't you know that Ramoth Gilead belongs to us and yet we are doing nothing to retake it from the king of Aram?"
          4 So he asked Jehoshaphat, "Will you go with me to fight against Ramoth Gilead?"
          Jehoshaphat replied to the king of Israel, "I am as you are, my people as your people, my horses as your horses." 5 But Jehoshaphat also said to the king of Israel, "First seek the counsel of the LORD ."
          6 So the king of Israel brought together the prophets-about four hundred men-and asked them, "Shall I go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?"
          "Go," they answered, "for the Lord will give it into the king's hand."
          7 But Jehoshaphat asked, "Is there not a prophet of the LORD here whom we can inquire of?"
          8 The king of Israel answered Jehoshaphat, "There is still one man through whom we can inquire of the LORD , but I hate him because he never prophesies anything good about me, but always bad. He is Micaiah son of Imlah."
          "The king should not say that," Jehoshaphat replied.
          9 So the king of Israel called one of his officials and said, "Bring Micaiah son of Imlah at once."
          10 Dressed in their royal robes, the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah were sitting on their thrones at the threshing floor by the entrance of the gate of Samaria, with all the prophets prophesying before them. 11 Now Zedekiah son of Kenaanah had made iron horns and he declared, "This is what the LORD says: 'With these you will gore the Arameans until they are destroyed.' "
          12 All the other prophets were prophesying the same thing. "Attack Ramoth Gilead and be victorious," they said, "for the LORD will give it into the king's hand."
          13 The messenger who had gone to summon Micaiah said to him, "Look, as one man the other prophets are predicting success for the king. Let your word agree with theirs, and speak favorably."
          14 But Micaiah said, "As surely as the LORD lives, I can tell him only what the LORD tells me."
          15 When he arrived, the king asked him, "Micaiah, shall we go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?"
          "Attack and be victorious," he answered, "for the LORD will give it into the king's hand."
          16 The king said to him, "How many times must I make you swear to tell me nothing but the truth in the name of the LORD ?"
          17 Then Micaiah answered, "I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd, and the LORD said, 'These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.' "
          18 The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Didn't I tell you that he never prophesies anything good about me, but only bad?"
          19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
          "One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
          22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
          " 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
          " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD . 'Go and do it.'
          23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

          Should we steal?
          Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13)
          Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33)

          Let me give you the WHOLE story,

          15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD , [3] the God of your fathers-the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob-has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.
          16 "Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD , the God of your fathers-the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob-appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt. 17 And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-a land flowing with milk and honey.'
          18 "The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD , the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.' 19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go.
          21 "And I will make the Egyptians favorably disposed toward this people, so that when you leave you will not go empty-handed. 22 Every woman is to ask her neighbor and any woman living in her house for articles of silver and gold and for clothing, which you will put on your sons and daughters. And so you will plunder the Egyptians."

          They are not stealing from the Egyptians as much as punishing them for their oppression and disbelief.


          • #50
            Part 2

            Shall we keep the Sabbath?
            Ex. 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (Ex. 31:15; Num. 15:32,36)
            Is. 1:13 The new moons and the Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity. (John 5:16; Matt. 12:1-5)

            You have to forgive my dimness, but I don’t see the problem here with these passages.
            However, just as a blanket statement, Christians are no longer required to obey the Sabbath. Christ’s death on the cross fulfilled the law (including the commandments) so that we no longer need to follow it (i.e. ceremonial washing of hands, animal sacrifice, etc.) However, we are to follow Christ’s teaching which can be found all through the Gospels and explained in the following epistles, which for the most part mirrors God’s commandments. Someone who uses the Sabbath as an argument against the consistency of the Bible has obviously not read it for meaning.

            Shall we make Graven images?
            Ex. 20:4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in (Lev. 26:1)
            EX. 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.

            Just so we’re clear, for the un-initiated, cherubims are angels, not God. Secondly, you have to put this into context of the time. At this time, the people were making sculptures, paintings, etc. of almost every god that came down the pike. The people wanted something visual that they could worship and so they made things like golden calves to which they gave their praise. God did not want any old hack making what he thought to be God and giving it his praise.
            The cherubim were significant because they were to go onto the tabernacle. Before the death of Christ, the high Priest went into the holy place (room in the temple) to account for the sins of the people for the past year. There, in that room, God was present between the wings of the cherubim. The praise in this case was not going to the cherubim, rather to Him.

            Are we "saved" through works?
            Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16)
            James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21)

            Of course we’re not saved through works. We are saved by grace. To think that we can ‘earn’ our way in to heaven is laughable. As you quote later, “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” And “the wages of sin is death.” Meaning hell. The Christian needs to believe that Christ lived a perfect life and served as a sacrifice (the ultimate animal sacrifice.) That’s it.
            Ok, now how does the 2nd part of this work in here? In the context of this James passage, it also says that “works without faith is dead.” The church at that point in time (funny how what I’m about to say is still here today) was riddled with people who claimed to be believers but did not live the Christian life. James is telling the people (and this is mirrored throughout the teachings of Jesus, Paul, and Peter) that we are to judge those who claim to be believers in order that heresy or false teaching would not enter into the church. The believer who is honestly saved or justified will have made changes in his or her life, “a new creation in Christ” as Romans says. I.E. – a sexually immoral person turns from his or her life. Also people would begin doing things they did not always do – giving to the poor. Helping the needy. These are not necessary for salvation, however they are signs of it for which believers are supposed to look out in other believers to avoid, as I said, heresy. Then and now nothing is more detrimental to the Christian cause than someone who claims to be a believer but is a hypocrite.

            Should good works be seen?
            Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works. (I Peter 2:12)
            Matt. 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them...that thine alms may be in secret. (Matt. 23:5)

            I must admit, I feel like you’re grabbing at straws here. The last few anyone who has read the Bible should have known. These are just statements taken out of their context. As I stated in previous posts, anything can be proven using Scripture if you take only snippets of what you want the Bible to say. You have to take into account the culture of the time and the paragraphs around your passage or else you get stuff like this.
            In the second passage he is speaking to the Pharisees and Sadducees (the teachers of the day) who did their “good works” for all to see. However, they do their works so that they might receive praise from men, not God. The key here is humility.
            This is to be contrasted by people who do their good works or deeds for the glory of God, not their own personal pride. They are to live their lives in full honesty. If you make a mistake, don’t hide it but be open about it and let men see your honesty. We as Christians are to let others know that we are Christians. There is no such thing as “ninja Christians”. Who says “I’ve been a Christian for 17 years, and NOBODY knows!”? The biggest reason that others will want to become Christians is that if others can see the changes in our lives, the joy, and the assurance that we have in Christ then they will be more apt to want to join us.
            But this works both ways. I personally feel that the biggest reason for atheism today is other Christians who profess Christ with their lips and deny him by their lifestyle. These people are not Christians and are not to be confused with those who really do make an attempt to life the correct life. It is important to understand the distinction that these passages are making. In once instance he’s talking to those who are on God’s side and in the other he’s talking to those who are in it only for praise from men.

            Should we own slaves?
            Lev. 25:45-46 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy...and they shall be your posession...they shall be your bondmen forever. (Gen. 9:25; Ex. 21:2,7; Joel 3:8; Luke 12:47; Col. 3:22)
            Is. 58:6 Undo the heavy burdens...break every yoke. (Matt. 23:10)

            OK, let me give you a little more of what it’s saying…
            6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
            to loose the chains of injustice
            and untie the cords of the yoke,
            to set the oppressed free
            and break every yoke?
            The oppression is the problem, not the slaves. No where in the Bible does it say anything about not having slaves. Rather, it is the mistreatment that is the problem.

            Feel free to click on these to see the whole context. The following is concerning the correct treatment of slaves. You see no where does it condemn the ownership of slaves.
            Ephesians 6:5
            Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
            (Whole Chapter: Ephesians 6 In context: Ephesians 6:4-6)
            Ephesians 6:9
            And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
            (Whole Chapter: Ephesians 6 In context: Ephesians 6:8-10)
            Colossians 3:22
            Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
            (Whole Chapter: Colossians 3 In context: Colossians 3:21-23)
            Colossians 4:1
            Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.
            (Whole Chapter: Colossians 4 In context: Colossians 4:1-2)
            1 Peter 2:18
            Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
            (Whole Chapter: 1 Peter 2 In context: 1 Peter 2:17-19)

            Does God change his mind?
            Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
            Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)

            Ok, change. Wrong meaning of change. When we change as humans, we think of how we change our ideas and philosophies on life. Also, when we get older, we change as we get wiser and have more life experiences. This is what God is saying. He does not change as we think of it.
            This is not to be confused with changing one’s mind, which God will do. There are several instances when God has been influenced by the pleadings of his most devoted followers. I am reminded of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.


            • #51
              Part 3

              Abraham Pleads for Sodom
              16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."
              20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
              22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD . [5] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [6] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing-to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [7] of all the earth do right?"
              26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
              27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
              "If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."
              29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
              He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."
              30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
              He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
              31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"
              He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."
              32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
              He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."
              33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
              The question is, was God persuaded by Abraham’s pleadings, or did God take into account what he knew Abraham would do?

              Are we punished for our parent's sins?
              Ex. 20:5 For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. (Ex. 34:7)
              Ezek. 18:20 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.

              Come on man, quit giving us half truths and put the whole passage into context. That first sentence you left out, which I underlined, is rather significant.

              20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

              Families are sometimes punished for what the parents do. For example, their land or possessions might be taken and the next generations will not be able to benefit from them. But they will not have to account for their sins.

              Is God good or evil?
              Psa. 145:9. The Lord is good to all. (Deut. 32:4; James 1:13)
              Is. 45:7 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. (Lam 3:38; Jer. 18:11; Ezek. 20:25)

              Of course God is good. However, since he created all, he also created evil. This is in order that we could have free will. If he did not give us the free will to decide whether or not we would follow him (among other decisions) he would have nothing other than robot followers. Who wants forced love? Furthermore, then next question that people ask is why then does there have to be any evil at all? OR maybe just a little evil? Where then do we draw the line. As I quoted earlier “for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” And “the wages of sin is death.” For our sin, we all deserve to die. Be careful what you wish for. In asking God to eliminate evil, you may be asking Him to eliminate you.
              Romans 9 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

              Is God Peaceable?
              John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. (Luke 2:14; Acts 10:36)
              Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 22:36)

              Once again, out of context. I’ll let you see for yourself what I’m talking about. The first, He’s talking to his disciples right before he tells them he is going to die. In the second he is talking about those whom he is going to judge (the sword is a metaphoric symbol for judgment.) You have to take into account the audience here and what they are talking about.

              Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

              15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[3] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
              22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
              23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
              25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
              28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
              "Come now; let us leave.

              32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
              34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
              " 'a man against his father,
              a daughter against her mother,
              a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
              36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5]
              37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
              40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."

              Was Jesus trustworthy?
              John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
              John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

              The 2nd is out of context. He’s affirming that in that day and age you needed the backing of at least one other man (sorry women) in order to be valid. However, he’s saying that it doesn’t really matter. He’s knows he’s right. Read the context and make the call for yourself. You have to always take into account who he’s talking to, the culture of the day, and what they’re talking about.

              The Validity of Jesus' Testimony

              12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
              13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
              14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
              19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
              20"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
              21Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
              22This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"
              23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[1] you will indeed die in your sins."
              25"Who are you?" they asked.
              26"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."
              27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.

              Testimonies About Jesus

              31"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. 32There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid.
              33"You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. 35John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.
              36"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study[3] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
              41"I do not accept praise from men, 42but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God[4] ?
              45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”


              • #52
                Shall we call people names?
                Matt. 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
                Matt. 23:17 (Jesus said) Ye fools and blind.

                What’s the problem here? If someone is being a fool, especially on matters concerning eternity, then call them a fool.

                Has anyone seen God?
                John 1:18 No man hath seen God at anytime. (Ex 33:20; Tim. 6:16; John 6:46; I John 4:12)
                Gen. 32:30 For I have seen god face to face. (Ex. 33:11, 23; Is. 6:1; Job 42:5)

                I’m getting tired of this… out of context.

                Jacob Wrestles With God
                22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."
                But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
                27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"
                "Jacob," he answered.
                28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, [5] because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
                29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."
                But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.
                30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, [6] saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
                31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, [7] and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob's hip was touched near the tendon.

                God does not walk the earth as a man does. This is clearly an angel. The sentence you quoted wasn’t even the entire sentence. Angels are the messengers of God and are often his hands and voice on earth. God used this angel as an extension of himself, almost like a puppet. Jacob understood this and that is why he referred to him as God’s face. If you your business is blown up by a mob thug, do you blamethe thug or the mobster who commanded him to do it? Do you really think that Jacob could wrestle with the God that created the world?

                How many gods are there?
                Deut. 6:4 The Lord or God is one Lord.
                Gen. 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image.(Gen. 3:22; I John 5:7)

                Oh come on. That doesn’t mean we are God. If I take a picture of my wife, an image, does that mean I now have 2 wives?

                Are we all sinners?
                Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned. (Rom. 3:10; Psa.14;3)
                Job 1:1 There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright. (Gen. 7:1; Luke 1:5-6)

                Perfect doesn’t mean sinless. It merely means he had no huge vice visible to other men such as sexual immorality, greed, pride, selfishness, etc. Every man sins. Remember this, the command that Jesus felt the most important -- 27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[1] ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[2] Luke Who has done this?

                When was Jesus crucified?
                Mark 15:22 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
                John 19:14-15 And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out...crucify him!"

                Mark 15
                22They brought Jesus to the place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull).
                Oops?? I think you’ve got the wrong passage. You meant verse 25.
                Romans and Jews tell time differently. Any historian could tell you this. You actually didn’t take it far enough, another passage says the 9th hour. Here’s what’s happening. The sixth hour and the ninth hour are accurate as we know them. (6:00 and 9:00) It is accepted among historians that 6:00 was the time when Christ was sentenced to crucifixion and 9:00 was when he was placed on the cross. The 3rd hour lines up with the roman 9th hour.

                Shall we obey the law?
                I Peter 2:13 Submit yourself to every ordinance of man.
                Acts 5:29 We ought to obey God rather than men.

                Right. Read it this way….
                1. We ought to obey God rather than men.
                2. Submit yourself to every ordinance of man.
                3. When in doubt, see #1.
                All authority is given by God, not earned as men think. Laws are a good and necessary thing. Lawlessness leads to death and evil (see present day Haiti). However, when the law asks us to go against God, we are then to stand against it. Ref story of Daniel and the lions den.


                PS> I really encourage you to read my “for further reading” located at the top of this post. If you have any questions, you know how to find me.


                • #53
                  Problem with Lutherans

                  My major beef with the Lutherans is the following (and please understand this does not necessarily reflect all Lutherans):

                  Lutherans often water-down the salvation message. I grew up in teh Lutheran church, went to leadership camps, was a sunday school teacher, went to the youth group and at the age of 18 could not tell you how someone was saved. I have met (I can name names if you want) others my age who have experienced the same, except they have yet to turn back to the church.
                  Lutheran doctrine places an emphasis on Love rather than the truth about God. They're too concerned about offending people and chasing them away then about telling them the truth.
                  Furthermore, I tire of page 56 in the Lutheran Book of Worship. I know almost no one who can read that week after week hatand really truely mean it when they recite it. (For the uninitiated, this is like a creed of Lutherans and is only one example. From complete memory -- "We confess taht we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. We have sinned against You in thought word and deed, by what we have done andby what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart, we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves...etc.") Why not instead use a little better planning and create something that refers to teh sermon (which in most lutheran churches is only 10-15 mins) and make some meaning to it?

                  Once again, I stress that this is not necessarily the case in all Lutheran churches, but merely my own observation.

                  Sorry, but you asked..



                  • #54
                    In re-reading my previous responses (I don't mean to hog this entire page) I realize that much of my formatting got lost in my cutting and pasting. I apologize as this makes it much harder to read.



                    • #55
                      Some lutheran denominations are as you describe. Check out the Lutheran church missouri synod. They are very hard line when it comes to scriptures.

                      Lizard, go back and look at my post on a world with age. If God created everything with age then all the speices already existed and can adapt.

                      Evolution has not been proven EVER! It is the theory of evolution not the law of evolution. Adaptation happens. But there is no proof that one species became another species. It has not happened. There is no proof that it has ever happened.

                      And if we are speaking about refuting God by using the bible. Then I am correct in that evil is defined as contrary to Gods will.

                      If God grants free will then people now have a choice.

                      Existing is not imperfection. (please prove this premis)
                      If God created the universe because it suited him that does not make him imperfect. Saying so has no basis in fact. If this is your premis please prove it.

                      Simply saying this is so does not make a logical argument. Science (a philosophy of thought based on logic and empiral evidence) says to prove something is true you must demonstrate it and be able to reproduce it. This only shows us what we can observe though. To prove scientifically that God does not exist you would have to have certainty and evidence that he does not exist. This is a problem when you are talking about an entity that is supposed to be all powerful and able to do anything that it wants. Science can never disprove the existence of God. It can only prove things that occur.

                      Adaption occurs. Things change color, get bigger, smaller, become poisonis.
                      No one has ever observed evolution. A cat has never become a dog. A fish has never become a mammal. It has not happen.

                      Biology as one of its tenents says that life cannot come from nonlife. Biogenisis.
                      Thermodynamics says things move from order to chaos not chaos to order which is what evolution states.

                      I do not care if you believe in God or not But do not say you are using logic when you are not.

                      Logic is

                      All boys are blue
                      Jake is a boy
                      therefore Jake is blue.

                      your arguments are not arrange in this fashion.

                      You make a statement, and proclaim that this statements is true. Since the statement is not a known fact it cannot be accepted on its face. And you saying it's true cannot be accepted as support for the nonfact.


                      • #56
                        foot in mouth

                        Excessive-- I apologize, I should not have made assumptions about all Lutherans on a public forum w/o knowing all the details about all the synods. I admit that I jumped to conclusions and hope that no offense has been made. Furthermore, I am encouraged that the missouri synod has taken this hard line of which you speak.



                        • #57
                          [QUOTE]Adaption occurs. Things change color, get bigger, smaller, become poisonis.
                          No one has ever observed evolution. A cat has never become a dog. A fish has never become a mammal. [QUOTE]

                          It seems to me that adaptation is evolution in the short term. If a creature adapts enough, at some point it is no longer the same creature. This is especially plain when we consider that the line between same creatures with different features and different creatures with similar features is entirely subjective.

                          Example: If a particular strain of weasels were to adapt to food availability changes by growing larger and developing claws better to climb trees and yadda, yadda (this over many generations, obviously)... pretty soon we have 10 pound tree dwelling, egg eating creatures which are similar to but clearly not weasels. Of course, there are still ferrets and weasels running around on the ground eating mice and snakes and such.


                          • #58
                            That may very well lead to evolution. But to date there is no proof that anything has made a change from species to species.

                            The theory of Evolution uses adaptation as a vehicle for evolution but no proof exists that this actual has occurred, can occur or will occur in the future.

                            If we all evolved from apes then why are there still apes? shouldn't they be gone. Where is the link between apes an people? I have not seen any ape like humans, Except maybe in NHB


                            • #59
                              This one goes out to my buddy Hickage!

                              A new minister is assigned to a small town in the old west.
                              When he arrives he finds that there is no church so he sets up a tent and spends the entire week letting everybody know that services will be held that Sunday at the tent in the field.

                              When the day comes he finds only one grizzled lone dusty cowpoke sitting out in the pews. He waits but no one else shows up.

                              Not knowing what else to do he descends the pulpit and approaches the cowboy.
                              He tells him he's sorry but he'll have to cancel the service as there arent enough people in attendance.

                              The cowboy responds; "Well, sometimes in winter I have to go out on the range and bring feed to my cattle. If only one showed up I sure wouldnt turn it away unfed."

                              The minister is inspired by this, gets back on the pulpit and gives the longest most impassioned sermon he's ever delivered. When he's finally through he goes down to where the cowboy is sitting and asks; "How did you like that?"

                              The cowboy responds; "Well, sometimes in winter I have to go out on the range and bring feed to my cattle. If only one showed up I sure as hell wouldnt try and feed it the whole wagonload!"

                              Osopardo told me that one sometime back.


                              • #60
                                Taken from

                                logĀ·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ljk)
                                The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

                                And thus, using examples of the real world, historical evidence, common sense, geography....(the list goes on and on) we make a rational, logical conclusion that the likelihood of a Christian God is very low indeed. The typical arguments of a net-christian (my pet name for them) include things like blind adamance, eloquent words aimed at baffling the 'enemy', convenient getouts (always used with the bible), referalls to an unreliable, 2000 year old fairy tale, and stupid, nonsense statements like 'you can't disprove god' which mean absolutely nothing whatsoever in an argument in which the burden of proof lies upon the believer.

                                In contrast, the arguments of the scientist (and I hate to use that word, because it sounds like it's a faith in itself, which it isn't. It's common sense and intelligence) usually include valid, real world evidence, logical argument.

                                One thing I've learnt about arguing over religion is that religious people will NEVER, EVER admit they're wrong. They just keep posting, and posting, saying the same old things, until you just can't be arsed giving them the time of day anymore. I don't know why I bother anymore but I'm always tempted in the hope of liberating them from Dark Ages reasoning, in the hope that they can see the world a different way, like a few of my friends have after converting to atheism.

                                Sure, there is no 'proof' of evolution, but the evidence we find about the world around us, and how we observe the current set of species on the earth does point strongly towards it being true. Unlike 'because the bible says so'.

                                The second your God comes up to my door, and explains to me why he felt the need to 'create' a world full of natural disasters, and why he oh so conveniently has only ever showed any proof of his amazing powers to some crackpot arabs 2000 years ago who didn't even know the earth was round, I'll believe you.