Do you have a religion?

[osopardo]

...You have a religion? How devoted are you to your beliefs?
I'm Roman Catholic. Practicing but not devout.

I'm a frisbeeterian. We believe when you die your soul goes up on the roof and nobody can get it back down...

[cakegirl]

My dad's a Newtonist. He firmly believes that what goes up must come down.

[Tom Yum]

Aren't we all newtonists?

My dad's a Newtonist. He firmly believes that what goes up must come down.

Its not hard to believe in the principles of physics.


...ahh, daddy as an old war cannon...

[cakegirl]

He's a cannon maker.

[LatinoHeat]

Ive no religion

I have no religion .

[JKD Student]

I was Brought up Christian

However, I've come to a point in my life where it doesn't make sense to me to believe that there was a virgin birth, water turned to wine, or resurrection. Since believing those things and more is pretty much a requirement to be a "Christian", I can't say that I am any more. Plus the God of the Bible is awfully fickle to be perfect, omnishant, omnipotent, and completely benevolent. I think the Bible teaches lot's of helpful things, but so do lots of other religions. So do psychology and history for that matter, and they have better evidence for their claims, in my opinion.

I'm not opposed to there being a God or something like that. However, it isn't obvious to me that there is one. Just for your amusement, a few of my favorite pet theories are

1) that God isn't omnipotent, he's just enough more powerful than we are that people have thought he's all powerful. His lack of omnipotence is partially to blame for the problem of evil (bad things happening to good people and good things happening to bad people).

2) that God isn't all good. He doesn't always have our best interests in mind.

3) that God isn't omnishant, which leads to him not being omnipotent. Since he can't really control things that he isn't aware of.

(of course, in the above cases I'm not sure this being really deserves the name God which leads me to my final theory #4)

4) that there isn't a God.

The problem of evil is especially potent as an argument against the existence of a deterministic god (a god that has set up the world and people to fall like dominos in a predetermined way that we have no choice over).

It is somewhat more problematic as an argument against a God of free will, where we have moral choices and must reap the consequences of our good or bad behavior. Of course, the following questions apply to the free will defense I think.

1) Is it fair to be punished infinitely by spending eternity in hell for our finite sins in this lifetime

2) Is it fair to be asked to believe in the creation story, virgin birth, resurrection, etc based only on literature written by authors we don't know if we can trust during a time that was so long ago we can't verify the authors or the pertinent historical facts (especially when this was a culture much more given to unwarranted superstition due to lack of good science).

3) How can a God who created the rules by which the universe abides, and who created humans with all their potential for good and evil, and who chooses to allow the existence of evil absolve himself of any responsibility for our poor decisions? It's like creating an atomic device that will randomly choose to detonate or to provide energy for a city then blaming the device when it detonates. If God is a god who has determined each person's destiny and the course of all things in advance, the implications for God's morality are even worse.

Apart from all this talk of God though, It is important to me to treat people well, to foster healthy relationships and to help people who are suffering unnecessarilly when I have the means. It is important to me to make a positive contribution to society. I seem capable of assigning meaning to events and relationships in my life. I think that is possible without God, but some of the previous poster's seem to think that Atheism necissarilly equals nothing matters. I've heard the argument before that there is no meaning if there is no God, but I'm not sure if it is valid and I am crazy. From my perspective, it only seems valid when using a religious definition of "meaning". Obviously in that context there would be no meaning if the the main object of *insert name of religion here* didn't exist.

[eXcessiveForce]

realize that evil in a christian sense is doing contrary to God's will.

thus by giving people the ability to make their own choices the choose either to do Gods will or not.

All evil is simply choosing not to obey.

[JKD Student]

evil = contrary to god's will

realize that evil in a christian sense is doing contrary to God's will.

thus by giving people the ability to make their own choices the choose either to do Gods will or not.

All evil is simply choosing not to obey.

Exactly. And disobeying is a circumstance that, from a Christian standpoint, God has purposefully made possible and will punish us for eternity for choosing. Why? Because he wanted a relationship with us and he can't have a real relationship with a creature that doesn't have the freedom to choose or not choose him? How selfish is that on God's part? He doesn't need us, we only need him (he's self sufficient I assume). And there's no comparable downside for him. What's a little heartbreak for God over souls that don't choose to accept him in comparason to the eternity in hell his creations will endure if they don't? Plus he has all the other people who do choose to worship him as Lord of the Universe to console him. And to add insult to injury he doesn't give us much evidence for believing in him in this day and age. At least 2000 years ago Jesus was walking around performing miracles. These days, it's hard to believe in talking snakes.

[JKD Student]

pessimism as evidence of (un)truth

I don't see how you can deny the pessimism or negativity associated with most of the non spiritual posts.

I agree and know several...this is why I said most of the non spiritual posters within this thread. Garland, EmpyneSs, Zhorner all appear to have more negativity within their posts...while Ferdie and your posts appeared to be more positive in nature overall. The discussion with MathewA was very interesting.

One thing within your posts I noticed was your comment of the wisdom of the Bible. Out of curiosity what would you say to one who claimed the Bible has many errors as it was told by God to man, who is prone to make many mistakes?

This negativity is indeed an interesting observation. I would have to say that my view of things in general is considerably more pessimistic since I have found myself unable to believe in Christianity any more. "Is that evidence that I'm wrong in my beliefs?" is a question I often ask myself and am so far unable to answer definitively.

Although my hopefulness about an overarching plan has faded, however, my discomfort with believing outlandish things that I felt there was little evidence for has also faded. I am more comfortable with myself and my beliefs now. In spite of my pessimism, this is a very deep kind of happiness.

I try to remain open to whatever the truth turns out to be, perhaps that the Christian God does exist, or something else. When evidence that I'm comfortable presents itself, I will be able to re-establish more optimism about my eternal life in heaven in spite of my earthly trials and feel like I am being honest with myself too. It just doesn't seem likely to happen from my perspective at this moment. So I've chosen "honest with myself" over "manic optimism", or at least that's how I see it. Considering I think Christians believe many things that aren't true, I do believe they enjoy a little optimistic mania in the face of whatever trials come their way. Sometimes I'm even jealous. But at the end of the day, I don't think it's healthy. I'm happier believing only what I have good evidence for and remaining open for new evidence to show itself.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

realize that evil in a christian sense is doing contrary to God's will.

thus by giving people the ability to make their own choices the choose either to do Gods will or not.

All evil is simply choosing not to obey.

But how about bad things, like a deadborn child, is this also the result of choosing wrong?

Why if god was so perfect has he created people who need glasses or hearing aids
And if you say well he made glasses and hearing aids possible, why did he wait almost 6000 years with that?

Are we no more than an experiment gone horribly wrong?


BTW concerning happiness, I take that in small doses and am cautious of people wo seem happy all the time (ignorance is bliss?)

[Ferdie]

Wow, I've been training too much. I come back here & the thread's grown.

Religion is about faith - any religion. The debate will continue on the existence & non-existence of God or gods. While scientifically, we can not prove the existence of God or gods, we can not disprove it either. So the cycle continues...

If you were to read the "holy" books of the different religions, you will find all of them have accounts of events that, to the scientific world, would have been impossible to have occurred. Concentrating on these events is missing the point of what that religion is teaching. I call mine Faith, w/c to others is superstition. Faith, superstition... semantics. It helps me live a life that is productive & generous to others - and that's what's important. Do I believe Moses was helped by God to divide this huge body of water so that the Israelites could pass through? As a Christian, fully. As a scientifically thinking individual, partly. For all I know, the chase on the Israelites happened in a number of days. It was low tide when they crossed & by the time the Pharoah's chariots & soldiers got there, the tide was up. Some of them thought it was safe to cross & tried the deep waters & drowned. It's the process of low & high tide that is the act of God. I'm not dismissing the scientific explanation of how tides occur but to the faithful, everything in this world is a miracle.

Having a religion is no different from having a set of principles that one "religiously" follow in his/her day-to-day existence.

JKD, you're right. A lot of Christians tend to look be very optimistic all the time. But that's only because they have faith enough to see that there is always something good that would come out of any event.

Toudi, bad things happen. But it is recovering from a fall that ALSO defines being a spiritually strong person. I had a brother who had cerebral palsy. Did I blame God? Certain points in my life I did - boy, did I! But then I realized I had the responsibility as the eldest, as a good individual & as a Christian to be there & help him all his time in this world. I have become a better person w/ my brother. Was it growth on the expense of another? No. It was growth in an otherwise depressing time in one's life. I was living in a country w/o the services needed for individuals such as my bro - economy was (& continues to be) bad. Working hard & having Faith that everything would be alright was the only answer.

[Sensei Saki]

Oops. I wasn't paying attention. Tell me again what is going on.

[JKD Student]

the definition of Christianity

If you were to read the "holy" books of the different religions, you will find all of them have accounts of events that, to the scientific world, would have been impossible to have occurred. Concentrating on these events is missing the point of what that religion is teaching. I call mine Faith, w/c to others is superstition. Faith, superstition... semantics. It helps me live a life that is productive & generous to others - and that's what's important.

While I understand what you're saying about the importance of faith in something that leads to living a better life, I can't completely agree. Being a Christian is about believing that Jesus was born to a virgin, and lived among us as the son of God, died on a cross and was resurrected. It was part of God's plan for our redemption. All the major religions teach things that people believe help them to live better lives, and most of these principles are not unique to any one of them. Believing in the specifics of Christianity are what distinguish you from just being a good person, or being part of a different religion. If you think the Bible isn't historically accurate in its accounts of the miraculous (especially on the points of virgin birth, and resurrection), you would be more honest to call yourself spiritual, but not Christian. And if you're going to believe in those two miracles, you might as well accept all the others because they are far less astounding.

[Sensei Saki]

RE: the definition of Christianity

Good point.
You are a Christian is about believing that Jesus was born to a virgin and lived among us as the son of God died on a cross and was resurrected?
Do you get to meet a lot of people?Is that your opinion?Perhaps there are a few exceptions.I think there might be a few exception.I think I do.Am I?That was my original intention.

[Ferdie]

While I understand what you're saying about the importance of faith in something that leads to living a better life, I can't completely agree. Being a Christian is about believing that Jesus was born to a virgin, and lived among us as the son of God, died on a cross and was resurrected. It was part of God's plan for our redemption. All the major religions teach things that people believe help them to live better lives, and most of these principles are not unique to any one of them. Believing in the specifics of Christianity are what distinguish you from just being a good person, or being part of a different religion. If you think the Bible isn't historically accurate in its accounts of the miraculous (especially on the points of virgin birth, and resurrection), you would be more honest to call yourself spiritual, but not Christian. And if you're going to believe in those two miracles, you might as well accept all the others because they are far less astounding.

Good points, JKD.

Do I believe in virgin birth & resurrection? Again, as a Catholic student my whole life, yes. But with all the information that we have access to, we always think about what we have learned & still learning in our lives. The authors of the different books were inspired by God. How they wrote the events would be in accordance to the norms of the time. Am I then questioning the validity of the story? Only to strengthen my beliefs. I wasn't there & so it would be impossible for me to say it never happened. People still claim to have seen ghosts but it hasn't been proven or disproven that they exist.

Now, I am not just spiritual; I am a Christian. The term was derived from Jesus Christ. What separates my being a Christian from another religious is not the belief in just certain specifics in the Bible, but on my works that are Christ-like. Christians strive to live a life that is Christ-like - always giving. Miracles are also positive events that could not be explained & such things still occur. Do I believe that miracles happened in the Bible? Yes I do. I am simply opening my mind to the possibilities. Fact of the matter is that everything is in order in this world because of a certain force or energy. As a Christian, to me this energy is God. In my beliefs, He is the one who is providing us w/ miracles every single day in this world.